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Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

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Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#141

Post by MonkeyClub »

wredcoll wrote: post #60
harrall wrote: post #39

If an older web developer rants about abstraction, they will target React developers. If a Python dev rants about abstraction, they will target older web developers. If a C++ application dev rants about abstractions, they will target Python developers. If a firmware dev rants about abstractions, they will target application developers. If an electrical engineer rants about abstractions, they will target firmware deve…

God, you're right, this is almost as bad as those "well chemistry is just applied physics and physics is just applied mathematics so math is the best" nonsense that shows up every so often.

... And math is just applied philosophy, and philosophy is just applied wine drinking.

So let's drink some wine and be merry.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#142

Post by aleph_minus_one »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #102
gerdesj wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I teach the systems class at Montana State," You teach and hence deal with this: "Information passed on between generations is diluted" Is it diluted? No it isn't. Your job is teaching and books and computers help us avoid calling you a bard 8) Mind you, being called a bard is not a bad thing! In the end this is a blog post response to another blog post. I have no idea about how "important" those bloggers are but I…

You only have so many hours to teach in a course, the more kids come in with, the farther you can go. If kids have to be taught what were once taken for granted, something else has to give.

In many countries, such a problem is solved via that a lot of incapable students are "weeded out" by brutal exams (in particular "math for computer scientists" exams are prone for this) in the beginning or in the first semesters - consider it to be a kind of hard "sink or swim"-style curriculum.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#143

Post by sarchertech »

TheMode wrote: post #93
sarchertech wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch some of the intros to his performance aware programming videos. He doesn’t want everyone to use C or Assembly. He also doesn’t want everyone micro-optimizing things. >compromises we find somewhat acceptable His entire point is that most developers aren’t actually aware of the compromises they are making. Which is why he calls it “performance aware programming” and not performance first programming.

I have actually watched many of his videos, as an individual I very much like his advices. What I am saying however is that this has nothing to do whatsoever with improving software at scale. But my point still stands, Casey focuses solely on the cultural aspect but completely ignore the technical one. He says that developers became lazy/uninformed, but why did that happen? Why would anything he currently say solve i…

I don’t think you can blame him for not having a large scale systemic solution to the problem.

Imagine if there was a chef on YouTube who was telling everyone how bad it was that we are eating over processed food, and he makes videos showing how easy it is to make your own food at home.

Would it be reasonable to comment to people who share the chefs message that you don’t like how his cooking videos don’t solve the root problem that processed food is too cheap and tasty?

And here’s the thing, he doesn’t have to solve the whole problem himself. Many developers have no idea that there’s even problem. If he spreads the message about what’s possible and more developers become “performance aware” maybe it causes more people to expect performance from their libraries, frameworks, and languages.

Maybe some of these newly performance aware programmers are the next generation of language and library developers and it inspires one of them to create the technological solution you’re hypothesizing.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#144

Post by greybox »

You make some very good points here. I've watched the talk too and criticism of it is important.

I have to say though Blow is right when he says: "you can't just Draw pixels to the screen"

I am a game engine programmer at a 'medium sized' games company and it is becoming VERY difficult to hire anyone to work on graphics code. DX12 (and others of the same generation) is a massive step up from what previous generations (DX11) used to demand of the programmer. Doing anything at all with these APIs is a massive task and by Microsoft's own admission (I can't find the quote from the docs anymore, citation needed), DX12 is extremely difficult to learn without experience with previous graphics APIs.

I see a lot of people using the argument: "but these APIs are only for developers that want to really push the limits of what the graphics card can do, and want to implement very low level optimizations." and that's partially true. But it's now the industry standard and it's nigh-on unteachable to anyone without previous experience.

Unless something changes, the hiring pool is going to continue to decrease in size.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#145

Post by SirHumphrey »

alecco wrote: post #138

The problem is confusing the collapse of the Western civilization and civilization per se. China is very happy to pick up the pieces. In spite of their cultural weaknesses, on this point they do teach and learn how to do everything from scratch. The West as a dominant civilization is absolutely collapsing. It's just a matter of how long will it take. I hope China learns from our mistakes and has the will to fix their…

But is it though? Because it's has been claimed for many many years that the west if falling (at least from 2008 on-wards) and yet - more people speak English than ever before, American culture (at least anecdotally) is more ever present and American tech corporations are 8 out of 10 most valuable companies in the world.

I guess that people always feel that the end is nigh.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#146

Post by [deleted] »

SirHumphrey wrote: post #145
alecco wrote: post #138

The problem is confusing the collapse of the Western civilization and civilization per se. China is very happy to pick up the pieces. In spite of their cultural weaknesses, on this point they do teach and learn how to do everything from scratch. The West as a dominant civilization is absolutely collapsing. It's just a matter of how long will it take. I hope China learns from our mistakes and has the will to fix their…

But is it though? Because it's has been claimed for many many years that the west if falling (at least from 2008 on-wards) and yet - more people speak English than ever before, American culture (at least anecdotally) is more ever present and American tech corporations are 8 out of 10 most valuable companies in the world. I guess that people always feel that the end is nigh.

[deleted]

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#147

Post by alecco »

SirHumphrey wrote: post #145
alecco wrote: post #138

The problem is confusing the collapse of the Western civilization and civilization per se. China is very happy to pick up the pieces. In spite of their cultural weaknesses, on this point they do teach and learn how to do everything from scratch. The West as a dominant civilization is absolutely collapsing. It's just a matter of how long will it take. I hope China learns from our mistakes and has the will to fix their…

But is it though? Because it's has been claimed for many many years that the west if falling (at least from 2008 on-wards) and yet - more people speak English than ever before, American culture (at least anecdotally) is more ever present and American tech corporations are 8 out of 10 most valuable companies in the world. I guess that people always feel that the end is nigh.

Latin was used for centuries after the Roman empire was gone.

The West is de-industrializing very fast. And a good chunk of the services side is switching to India and other cheaper countries and AI. The West is in its last legs. The final nails in the coffin will be when China achieves good enough but at cheap prices: 1) chips (5-10 years away) and 2) aerospace (8-12 years away?). China is investing heavily on these and acquiring the knowledge (wink-wink).

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#148

Post by olejorgenb »

bena wrote: post #61
mjr00 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He’s released two games which barely qualify as games. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but it's worth pointing out that Braid is not only widely considered one of the best games ever made[0], its success was also instrumental in the explosion of indie games in the late 00s/10s. The Witness didn't quite reach the same heights, but it got an 87 on Metacritic and was a financial success. Even if it's only two games…

I like Braid. I do. But, it’s more of a puzzle than a game. Once you figure out the answer, you’re done. Like Myst. Games have some element of skill involved and Blow’s products lack that. And that’s not to knock the products. I like puzzles. And not everything has to be a game. Will Wright has said that he does not make games, he makes toys. Digital toys. I also think people judge his work on his reputation more tha…

I'm confused. When did puzzle games stop being games?

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#149

Post by becquerel »

bena wrote: post #61
mjr00 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He’s released two games which barely qualify as games. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but it's worth pointing out that Braid is not only widely considered one of the best games ever made[0], its success was also instrumental in the explosion of indie games in the late 00s/10s. The Witness didn't quite reach the same heights, but it got an 87 on Metacritic and was a financial success. Even if it's only two games…

I like Braid. I do. But, it’s more of a puzzle than a game. Once you figure out the answer, you’re done. Like Myst. Games have some element of skill involved and Blow’s products lack that. And that’s not to knock the products. I like puzzles. And not everything has to be a game. Will Wright has said that he does not make games, he makes toys. Digital toys. I also think people judge his work on his reputation more tha…

I despise Blow but this is a critique that borders on the incoherent. You could just as well say that when you figure out how to hurt enemies without taking damage, you're done with action games.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#150

Post by torlok »

deanCommie wrote: post #47
torlok wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're getting close to ad hominem. It should be sufficient to point out how little overall people like Blow have accomplished. Blow is a hard worker, and yet it took him and his team 8 years to develop The Witness, which as you pointed out isn't anything revolutionary. I think there's a weird form of elitism at play here. Working close to the hardware isn't hard. There was a point in my early 20s where I too…

The Witness isn't revolutionary, but it is crafted with the care of someone who cares about the small details of 3D worlds. Besides being easily one of the deepest/broadest puzzle games of the decade, it is GORGEOUS, and filled to the brim with visual scenes that take your breath away. To me it's something more akin to the iPod. "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame." was absolutely a correct way to dismiss it…

I'm not dismissing the craftsmanship that went into making The Witness. All I'm saying is that it's cringe to be so critical of other developers when in essence he spends an extraordinary amount of time on his projects, and hasn't shipped anything cutting edge or anything other developers can even use.
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