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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#781

Post by jenadine »

dragonelite wrote: post #763
llm_trw wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't want to use C perhaps you shouldn't contribute to a 33 year old project written in C?

It sounds so simple, I don't get it why the Rust people don't write their own operating system or bundle their human capital to such a project. They have been trying for years now to integrate Rust in the Linux kernel they could have made some good progress on a rust only OS by now. If only just a kernel that can run server like application without a gui shell.

There are many Rust OS mentioned in this thread. (Eg Redox) But the success of an OS also depends on the availability of drivers, and it's hard to compete with existing proven OS such as Linux on that front.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#782

Post by mplanchard »

ratorx wrote: post #317
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the current drama, I'm glad someone of his stature agrees with and can call out the horrible processes and tooling involved in the kernel. Using email and a pile of hacks to mess around with patches just sounds nuts and makes it so much harder to understand or contribute. I don't think decentralized necessitates such a terrible workflow - you can run a local website with a distributed DB, distributed git forg…

I don’t think there is enough demonstrable benefit to sacrifice the ubiquity and flexibility of email for a newer solution, especially for existing maintainers who are probably very comfortable with the current workflow. Harder to understand and contribute is a bad, but unless there is a proposal for a similarly flexible system that has minimal downsides and massive advantages, the preference of existing maintainers…

I really like the way sourcehut integrates mailing list patches with a good UI. I’d like to see that become more common in some of these “classic” open source projects.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#783

Post by kashyapc »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor, but he hasn't said anything explicitly. [...]

I don't see it that way. Linus is conscious of not becoming a bottleneck on every topic; he doesn't want to baby-sit overly grown adults. I read most of the relevant LKML thread[1]. Martin did the unwise thing of escalating it on social media:

"If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas."

That is not the way to build bridges and relationships in a community! No matter how frustrated you are. He reaped the whirlwind for taking that destructive approach.

Also, Christoph Hellwig, as an established maintainer, totally missed the mark by using the highly-flammable word, "cancer", to describe Rust. It scorched the LKML and the internet. He should have showed more restraint and wisdom.

[1] https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6YPfsDSNdRUskvp@phen...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#784

Post by bechampion »

tedivm wrote: post #53
Longhanks wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This infighting is only going to hurt the kernel in the long run. Every time this "discussion" comes up, I walk away with the feeling that Linux kernel developers are unreasonably hostile and impossible to work with. It makes me wonder why new people would ever bother trying to contribute anything. Well, this is your take, as you explicitly wrote "I walk away with the feeling". My take is: The kernel developers are…

The kernel is doing fine today, but I don't think that's sustainable. The average age of the maintainers seems to be rising, and plenty of skilled people completely avoid kernel development explicitly because of the hostility and, frankly, assholish behavior that comes from the folks on these mailing lists. Eventually a lot of these people are going to age out, retire, or otherwise move on. I do think there will be a…

they don't avoid it cause the hostility , they avoid it case we live in this high level era , where nobody knows where code runs or how it runs.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#785

Post by api »

arp242 wrote: post #195
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

IMHO social media is toxic period and has no place in any professional interaction. It is inherently biased toward drama and bullshit by design, since this “maximizes engagement.”

The sooner politicians are outright banned from using it for anything connected to their office the better.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#786

Post by neobrain »

eqvinox wrote: post #709

He also got his treehouse.systems Mastodon account "suspended by a moderator". Not sure if the treehouse people have said anything more specfic, but I am entirely unsurprised given how he behaved on there. It's a quite clear case of "what you accuse others of is what you yourself resort to". He was calling out others for unreasonableness, flaming and sabotage — and did exactly that himself.

It doesn't say anything about moderator action for me.

He closed the account himself:

> I actually wasn't sure if I wanted to delete my Mastodon entirely or not, but as I intended to fill in my password for confirmation and decide whether to click the button, my password manager auto-submitted the form for me. Call it fate, I guess. I mostly don't regret it. Maybe I'll be back some day, maybe not.

https://old.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1ijvq7y/asahi_l...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#787

Post by nicce »

eqvinox wrote: post #720
AndyKelley wrote: post #422

I've been saying this for years now: the rust4linux folks are putting so much effort into trying to upstream their work, seems like they should instead put that effort into maintaining a fork. Arguably it would be less hours spent porting than arguing with humans. Certainly more pleasant! Then one of two things will happen: * Rust will prove its worth and their fork will be the better operating system. Distros will s…

> Sounds like Hector Martin is doing exactly that, burning the bridge along the way. Good luck! I think it's the right move (minus the bridge burning). Unfortunately, what Hector Martin was actually doing is producing rather spectacular flame on LKML and Mastodon. And he isn't representative of other Rust developers either, at least one has voiced their disagreement with him: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6…

> Now I'm left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi or reddit or wherever. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here, I really don't get it, but I am for sure fed up dealing with the fallout.

That is a perfect description on what has been happening over the years.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#788

Post by llm_trw »

jenadine wrote: post #781
dragonelite wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds so simple, I don't get it why the Rust people don't write their own operating system or bundle their human capital to such a project. They have been trying for years now to integrate Rust in the Linux kernel they could have made some good progress on a rust only OS by now. If only just a kernel that can run server like application without a gui shell.

There are many Rust OS mentioned in this thread. (Eg Redox) But the success of an OS also depends on the availability of drivers, and it's hard to compete with existing proven OS such as Linux on that front.

So build a kernel that uses the same API as Linux but in Rust.

Surely it should be easy if you're asking the Linux people to do the same thing for drivers written in Rust?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#789

Post by metaltyphoon »

pornel wrote: post #752
littlestymaar wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was to be expected, many of their anti-C++ complaints also apply to Rust, given that both languages share many common ideas, even if presented in different forms. I was genuinely surprised when Linus opened the door for Rust in the Kernel for that reason. And the real waste is there: had Linux said a straight “no”, then nobody would have lost their time trying to make this work against all odds. Or maybe Linus…

Linus said he's worried that he and core kernel maintainers are getting old, and there may not be enough younger contributors to replace them. There's an implication there that Rust will continue to grow and attract more talent, and it'll get harder and harder to find devs passionate about old C codebases.

It’s absolutely a wild to me how this is not talked about more. All it takes is for a set of highly praised institutions to use Rust for their major courses and now you will have generations which C is just something you know about.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#790

Post by ninkendo »

LWN has a great impartial summary of what is occurring, including background on why the DMA subsystem is an important interface point for rust drivers: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/be4cb766fd906623/

(This is a shared link to a subscriber-only LWN article, please consider a paid subscription to LWN if you liked it!)

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