Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel • Hacker News Board

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#771

Post by Lerc » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:10 PM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #718

tw1984 wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no feedback whatsoever for 2 months - just because it was 17k lines - and you are blindly defending it? if you don't know what you are posting & talking about, then maybe you shouldn't. if someone is willing to put in the efforts to submit such a huge patch, how about just show them a little bit respect, I mean the minimum amount of respect, for such efforts and send them a one line reply asking them to break the pat…

> if you don't know what you are posting & talking about, then maybe you shouldn't I hate to appeal to authority, but I have been working with large cathedral-style open source projects (mostly three: GCC, QEMU, Linux itself) for about 20 years at this time and have been a maintainer for a Linux subsystem for 12. So I do know what I am posting and talking about. The very fact that I had never learned about this subsy…

Surely if there were insufficient established context for a reviewer to easily follow a large patch the correct response would be a swift rejection with a request that such context be established prior to submitting again.

It sounds like there was willingness to meet any requirements, but submitters end up in a position of not knowing what the requirements are and if they have met them or not.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#772

Post by f1shy » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:12 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #671

FullGarden_S wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? This was never about the languages primarily though. The C programmers here would react the same way towards any other language, be it Zig or Swift, its not Rust specific. They just don't want to partake the additional headache they'll have to deal with to for making the Linux kernel more accessible to languages other than C. Despite than, Rust devs kept on pushing it after all that was clearly stated, just to ma…

I somewhat disagree on the "you can't escape unsafe" part. It's true for a C+Rust project, but the idea that you need an unsafe language for low level hardware access is plain wrong. That's a "C-ism". Something that might seem true in a universe where most low level work is done in C, but wouldn't be true in a universe where C doesn't exist at all.

As long as you can directly write registers, you can screw it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#773

Post by Keyframe » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:12 PM UTC

tw1984 wrote: post #637

quelsolaar wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The policy of "No C++, because I don't want to deal with C++ people", should be extended to the Rust community. Whatever you think of the merits of the Rust language, the drama, the lecturing and the general superiority complex of the Rust community is quite off putting, at least to C developers.

> at least to C developers. so it is not about technical merits, but just some language religious thing? nice.

those are still technical merits/non-merits, albeit on the project management level.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#774

Post by f1shy » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:14 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #762

chikere232 wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not without merit. Two languages is an extreme cost in complexity compared to one, and you have to be a deep expert in both to fully figure out anything on the boundary. Perhaps rusts potential benefits are worth it, but it's certainly possible to disagree with that

Sure, but (1) that ship has sailed for now, there are already Rust bits in the kernel; and (2) a patch email thread is not the best place to start discussing whether Rust has a place in the kernel.

Is it impossible to just delete the rust parts and go back to pure C?

That ship could come back to port anytime.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#775

Post by Keyframe » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

preisschild wrote: post #655

coliveira wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also agree that Linux should close the door to Rust as a matter of principle, as it has done to any other language other than C. I don't believe in a mixed language kernel, it is just nonsense, specially with such a different language such as Rust which is closer to C++ in philosophy.

I love Linux and have no preference to either C or Rust, but locking Linux in to a programming language that was designed in the relatively early stages of computing will lead to Linux dying in the long term. There will be fewer and fewer new C programmers with people instead taking up newer systems programming languages like Rust or Zig.

There are zero indicators for that happening. In fact, if history is by any means an indicator for the future, we might see these dying out over the years in favor of new hyped ones and C standing against the time. Zig is nothing so far, personally I believe Rust has some staying power for now, but we'll see. As for C, kernel C is not all that C where C was led to in recent years.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#776

Post by Brian_K_White » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

MrJohz wrote: post #596

Brian_K_White wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no specific improvement if the problem is fundamental. There is no "better/right" way to spread a cancer. (I'm not saying it is, just that that is the argument, and in that context, there is no such thing as a common goal to reach some better way. Everyone does not actually have to agree that all goals are valid and should be reached.) The only helpful advice, which they did give, is don't even start doing t…

> The linux kernel is like a house where everyone is a vegan. Marcan believes that incorporating some meat in the diet is important, and better that being a vegan. He may even be right. But so what? He makes his pitch, the family says that's nice but no thanks. He then demands that they eat this chicken because he wants to live in the house and wants to eat chicken while living in the vegan house? While I think this…

Of course it's ok to block something they judge to be harmful as much as they can. That is their explicit job as maintainer is to make exactly that type of judgement.

If they are overstepping, then Linus will make that known. Until then, apparently they are not overstepping.

And he can use that image if it communicates the concept he wants to communicate.

It sounds like a valid image to me to apply to the concept of polyglot.

He is saying that "If there is really no way for a rust driver to exist all by itself without any of the c code having to do anything special to accomodate it, then so be it, I guess rust doesn't fit here after all."

rust devs are saying "you're not even helping a tiny bit!". I am saying, no, they're not, so what? They don't have to. They did not request what rust devs are trying to do.

The concession rust devs got to proceed to attempt to use rust in the kernel at all doesn't promise almost anything beyond "well you can try". It does not promise to facilitate that try at all really.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#777

Post by gkbrk » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:25 PM UTC

n144q wrote: post #329

znpy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core of the issue is expecting people to agree with stuff. Linux is free software and there's really nobody stopping people from forking it and doing things the way they want. It used to happen all the time once upon a time, nowadays people seems to be afraid of doing it.

I can easily fork your project with 1k lines of code, but not Linux kernel and stay up-to-date with all the latest commits. Nobody can.

Why would a Rust for Linux fork want to stay up-to-date with all the latest commits that are in C?

If all the latest commits in C are so useful, even to a Rust fork, perhaps the Linux C devs are not off-base that Rust isn't worth it for now.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#778

Post by steveklabnik » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:25 PM UTC

Brian_K_White wrote: post #776

MrJohz wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The linux kernel is like a house where everyone is a vegan. Marcan believes that incorporating some meat in the diet is important, and better that being a vegan. He may even be right. But so what? He makes his pitch, the family says that's nice but no thanks. He then demands that they eat this chicken because he wants to live in the house and wants to eat chicken while living in the vegan house? While I think this…

Of course it's ok to block something they judge to be harmful as much as they can. That is their explicit job as maintainer is to make exactly that type of judgement. If they are overstepping, then Linus will make that known. Until then, apparently they are not overstepping. And he can use that image if it communicates the concept he wants to communicate. It sounds like a valid image to me to apply to the concept of…

No, the rust devs are saying “you do not need to accommodate” and he’s saying “I say no anyway.”

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#779

Post by samiv » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:27 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #424

tadfisher wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same about Make, Device Tree, KConfig, Python, the myriad of machine-specific assembly, POSIX shell, Perl, and every other non-C language currently in the code base?

That's a false equivalency. All of those languages are integrated through strong semantic and concrete abstractions (e.g. file system I/O or GCC interfaces) that evolve, if at all, very slowly. Some, like assembly, are necessary concessions, and are exceptions that prove the rule--developers prefer GCC builtins if available, for example. The problem with Rust in the kernel is that the kernel has historically eschewed…

"The problem with Rust in the kernel is that the kernel has historically eschewed strong internal abstractions. The Linux kernel has no principled abstract architecture in the same way that Windows NT does; it has evolved very organically and even some of the most foundational subsystem APIs regularly see refactorings that touch almost every corner of the kernel."

And this is the reason why it's always regressing and never moves beyond alpha.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#780

Post by coliveira » Sat, Feb 08, 2025, 2:29 PM UTC

bbkane wrote: post #766

coliveira wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C and Unix have stood the test of time. It has been 50 years since they were designed, this is a long time in terms on computing. It is not unreasonable to think that they will stay for another 50 years.

Yes, they SHOULD be adding Fortran, another language that has stood the test of time, to the Linux kernel. Or... Maybe it's good that they add a new (still 10 years old) language with security and DX improvements occasionally. 50 years ago, that language was C...

How many operating systems are written in FORTRAN and still widely used?