[deleted]
Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
711–720 of 1001 posts
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#712Earlier quoted context omitted.
People should read it: "... I come at this from the perspective of having worked on Linux since around December of 1991. I first met you and Tove in 1995 at the Free Software Conference at MIT that Stallman sponsored. ... Probably the last technical contribution of my career is leading an initiative to provide the Linux community a generic security modeling architecture. Not to supplant or replace anything currently…
I don't know, dropping 17000 lines of code is probably not the best way to solicit technical discussions ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240826103728.3378-1-greg@enje... is the patch set in question)
no feedback whatsoever for 2 months - just because it was 17k lines - and you are blindly defending it? if you don't know what you are posting & talking about, then maybe you shouldn't.
if someone is willing to put in the efforts to submit such a huge patch, how about just show them a little bit respect, I mean the minimum amount of respect, for such efforts and send them a one line reply asking them to break the patch into smaller ones.
surely that won't take more than 45 seconds. still too hard to get the point?
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#713Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agree The more I hear about "community" the more I roll my eyes It can be great at doing the work but it is awful at setting direction, evolving with the times and focusing on what's important Going by another story on the front page, I have my long list of criticism about systemd but the "get things done" attitude needed to be commended
What an absolutely awful statement about one of the most successful community projects ever. Direction usually comes from the community and the maintainers just steer it. Little in the kernel comes from maintainers saying "let's do X" and community members implementing it
> Little in the kernel comes from maintainers saying "let's do X" and community members implementing it
Maintainers do steer direction of development though. A lot comes from maintainer saying "we are not accepting XYZ".
Today we only have proper open source GPU drivers because people like David Airlie who stand for their principle against likes of Nvidia and AMD.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#714He also got his treehouse.systems Mastodon account "suspended by a moderator". Not sure if the treehouse people have said anything more specfic, but I am entirely unsurprised given how he behaved on there. It's a quite clear case of "what you accuse others of is what you yourself resort to". He was calling out others for unreasonableness, flaming and sabotage — and did exactly that himself.
See, nobody would close his account if he was still on Twitter.... sorry X now
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#715Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's definitely your environment, Rust isn't nearly as popular for actual projects getting done as it is in (for example) StackOverflow's survey. C, C++, Odin and Zig are all languages where whatever C knowledge you have right now can trivially be put to use to do things, immediately, I think it makes perfect sense that unless someone is just really into doing Rust things they'll just take the trivially applicable wa…
There are a lot of C programmers who do not like or are not fond of Zig or Odin. For highly proficient C and C++ programmers, many consider them not worth their time. Not even counting, that both Zig and Odin are in beta. It's an investment to become as proficient in the other language. An example is Muratori from handmade hero, who publicly stated he dislikes Zig and pretty much sees it as a confused mess[1]. He thi…
I would suggest linking to a timestamped point in the video instead of the entire thing. With regards to Odin having metaprogramming this is either a misunderstanding on your part of what was said or a misunderstanding from Casey Muratori with regards to Odin; Zig has a much stronger claim to having metaprogramming with `comptime` being as powerful as it is, whereas Odin only scarcely can be said to have a limited "static if" in the `when` keyword, plus your average parametric polymorphism via template parameters.
C programmers (and C++ programmers) who don't like Zig or Odin can simply use C (or C++), it's not really the case that they have to switch to anything, much less something as overwrought as Rust. My point is that it is natural for someone who is at any proficiency level above 0 in C to want to apply that proficiency in something that allows them to make use of those skills, and C, C++, Odin and Zig all allow them to do that, pretty much immediately.
You contend that "It's an investment to become as proficient in the other language" but I would argue that this is a very wide spectrum where Rust falls somewhere in the distance as opposed to all of the languages I mentioned instead being far closer and more immediately familiar.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#716The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…
I do wonder if Linus is actually opposed to Rust in the kernel, but for whatever reason thinks that he can't afford to openly ban it or do anything beyond deniably letting it be obstructed by maintainers. The Rust language project and community are political and politically savvy in ways that few other open-source infrastructure projects are - it seems conceivable that if he declared against it, this might result in…
It would be a silly strategy compared to saying that mixing languages is a bad idea and rely on inertia.
Also, letting rust in doesn't seem to stop the personal attacks, case in point
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#717Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.
Yes, perhaps a C-only Linux would do that and die, and perhaps it would continue its customization of C flavor and runtime it uses (e.g., the various static and dynamic memory limitations and checkers) and closes the gap with Rust to a point where the incremental benefit of using it is not significant enough that it makes a Rust based competitor an inevitability. We may already be beyond that point, even.
Or may be Zig might be more acceptable to the Kernal team, once it becomes mature enough?
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#718Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know, dropping 17000 lines of code is probably not the best way to solicit technical discussions ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240826103728.3378-1-greg@enje... is the patch set in question)
no feedback whatsoever for 2 months - just because it was 17k lines - and you are blindly defending it? if you don't know what you are posting & talking about, then maybe you shouldn't. if someone is willing to put in the efforts to submit such a huge patch, how about just show them a little bit respect, I mean the minimum amount of respect, for such efforts and send them a one line reply asking them to break the pat…
> if you don't know what you are posting & talking about, then maybe you shouldn't
I hate to appeal to authority, but I have been working with large cathedral-style open source projects (mostly three: GCC, QEMU, Linux itself) for about 20 years at this time and have been a maintainer for a Linux subsystem for 12. So I do know what I am posting and talking about.
The very fact that I had never learned about this subsystem from LWN, Linux Plumbers Conference, Linux Security Summit etc. means that the problem is not technical and is not with the maintainers not replying it.
A previous submission (7000 lines) did have some replies from the maintainers. Apparently instead of simplifying the submission it ballooned into something 150% larger. At some point I am not sure what the maintainers could do except ignoring it.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#719[flagged]
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#720I've been saying this for years now: the rust4linux folks are putting so much effort into trying to upstream their work, seems like they should instead put that effort into maintaining a fork. Arguably it would be less hours spent porting than arguing with humans. Certainly more pleasant! Then one of two things will happen: * Rust will prove its worth and their fork will be the better operating system. Distros will s…
> Sounds like Hector Martin is doing exactly that, burning the bridge along the way. Good luck! I think it's the right move (minus the bridge burning).
Unfortunately, what Hector Martin was actually doing is producing rather spectacular flame on LKML and Mastodon. And he isn't representative of other Rust developers either, at least one has voiced their disagreement with him: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phen...
I agree maintaining a fork would've been a more productive use of Hector's time, but that's not what has been happening and I see no reason to believe it is what will be happening from now on. From my own experience, personalities like Hector quit after not getting their way, rather than looking for other constructive options.