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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#662For context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42926732 https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU...
How is this not the top comment? I was scratching my head wondering until I found your links. So the smackdown from Linus is what motivated it. Honestly though if you read the email Linus is replying to, it was deserved. To be fair, Hector Martin may be one of the smartest hackers alive today. His fame goes way back to hacking the Playstation 3 with geohot and Hector has even found security vulnerabilities in Apple S…
> the White House recently took down its paper about the future of programming being memory safe
They took down all of https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/, what makes you think they gave any thought to this paper in particular?
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#663Earlier quoted context omitted.
He said explicitely: >Every additional bit that another language creeps in drastically reduces the maintainability of the kernel as an integrated project. The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language completely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. I think that clearly means he is out to sabotage…
I wouldn't call being vocally against something "sabotage". Would it be reasonable if that person said anyone trying to get rust integrated is sabotaging the Linux kernel?
You're comparing the actual intent of one side of the argument to a watered down version of the other side. "I will do anything in my power to stop this" is the stated intent of sabotage, not "I'm vocally stating my opposition to this" If someone said "I will do anything in my power to stop Linux development to proceed without Rust integrated into it", then yes, that would sound like intent to sabotage, but that's not anywhere close to what anyone is saying.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#664The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…
Get rust out of the kernel, now! Rust as a language is meant to be the output of an llm which can be verfied by humans.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#665Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would he do that? He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA? I thought he said he's fine with any drivers written in Rust. Just that the maintenance of such including any wrapper cannot fall into C DMA's lap.
> Why would he do that? It's a great question. I mean, my read of it is he hates the idea of Rust4Linux and is using his position to obstruct. > He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA? Apparently not. > Just that the maintenance of such including any wrapper cannot fall into C DMA's lap. The patch he rejected did not add any code to C DMA, nor C DMA's directory (kernel/dma). Just: rust/binding…
This isn't even just your read of it; as other people in this thread have pointed out, he's pretty explicitly stated it at this point.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#666Earlier quoted context omitted.
The DMA subsystem maintainer has some reasons: at this time you can disable all rust drivers when building the Linux kernel but you cannot disable rust wrappers to C language APIs. So if you need to change for example the DMA APIs, you also need to fix the rust wrapper before submitting the C patches otherwise you cannot even build a C only kernel.
A C only kernel build without CONFIG_RUST will not build a single line of Rust code nor will it touch anything in the rust subdirectory. If you don’t want to deal with rust, you don’t have to at all.
It’s a little bit more nuanced than this. Your parent commenter is wrong, by the way.
Suppose you want Rust, just not a single Rust driver using PCI. But CONFIG_PCI and CONFIG_RUST both selected will cause the PCI abstractions to get built anyway, even if not a single driver using them is selected. Then if the PCI subsystem introduces a change but the Rust counterpart fails to follow it fast enough, the build will break for the kernel as a whole.
This was illustrated with an example in that email thread.
I have some sad experience with polyglot projects. Unless you enjoy pain and drudgery, it’s an extremely unrewarding thing requiring very careful treading.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#667Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.
This is inevitable: Rust is proposed as a safe language, but there is no way to have a "half-secure" kernel. The only option for people who believe in Rust is to have its own kernel, and Linux should have no part on this.
> there is no way to have a "half-secure" kernel.
There is, and this is how Rust naturally works. If you look at its standard library, you will see a lot of unsafe code or libc calls hidden away under safe interfaces.
In fact, this is how all memory safe languages work, including Java, Python, etc: A small trusted base written in an unsafe language that exposes a safe interface (i.e. the interpreter, the JVM, etc), with the large majority of the code written over that safe interface (i.e. the Java/Python code).
Rust is used to make kernel drivers secure by providing a safe interface for them to use.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#668Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.
My experience with Rust and people who use Rust has actually been great. There seems to be an entire second world of “Rust community” and Rust zealots online who are heavy on the drama, though. It really does feel like an alternate Rust universe. Although when I think about it, several of my other interests and hobbies are exactly like this. Great in the real world, but as soon as you step into certain online spaces…
I don't think that's true. I think the C guys told themselves that writing safe C code is just a matter of skill, but data shows that the amount of skill necessary to avoid writing unsafe C just isn't there. The average C developer isn't as competent as they claim.
You can lie to yourself and say that the same security problems exist in other languages, but that isn't true.
When I check the vulnerabilities marked as HIGH on a JVM based project, it's often banal stuff like a denial of service in Spring. The consequences of an attack are a few days of downtime until we patch the library, but the truth is that while downtime on our application might be profitable for a competitor, it's not profitable for a black hat hacker working alone. They can't blackmail us, because we can update the library without paying them to stop.
Meanwhile the average C vulnerability is usually some form of RCE that would let the hacker install ransomware.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#669Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…
The short of his rant is that he wants a "Code Of Standards for maintainers" in addition to a CoC, in order to witch hunt people he feels "gets in the way." Yikes, this is EXACTLY what Linus was talking about except an order of magnitude worse!
No. He just wants people to have some decency and standards in communication and not arbitrarily decide that their little kingdom can never be touched.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#670The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…
> As a pilot program, R4L should have graduated or ended a long time ago.
Disagree. These things take time. Linus knows that, and as I see it, he's giving it the time it needs. "After years of active development" we've only recently arrived at a point where actual driver development in Rust is possible.
> We all know [Linus'] stance on C++
Yes. And looking back I think that was a good stance. C++ is not for kernels: the language is too big, containing features that don't fit well with kernel development, thereby inviting all kinds of discussion not conductive to kernel development.
Rust is another story. Rust has potential to bring benefits to the kernel. I think Linus knows that.
Off-topic: I'm looking forward to an --largely automated (maybe with use of LLMs)-- port of the kernel in Zig. Just because I think the developer ergonomics of Zig are so much better than C. Not holding my breath: in 10 years or so would be nice.