Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle • Hacker News Board

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#51

Post by bradleyland » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:25 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #36

ef4 wrote: post #26

Any competent machinist can make functional semiautomatic weapons. This is just the next step in making it even easier. If the United States ever got serious about banning firearms, a massive homebrew industry would grow up overnight. Gunpowder is not fundamentally harder to make than methamphetamine. People who quite rightly see our drug laws as pointless and ineffective somehow often miss that a gun ban would be no…

> If the United States ever got serious about banning firearms, a massive homebrew industry would grow up overnight. Do you have any stats or experience to back that up? It might happen, but you are stating as fact something that's not been tested. Anecdotally, in Australia where gun laws are very strict, it's difficult to get firearms. Yes, serious hardened criminals still get their hands on them, which certainly is…

> Do you have any stats or experience to back that up? It might happen, but you are stating as fact something that's not been tested.

It's difficult to provide stats and experience for events that haven't happened yet, but we can look at history. The last major prohibition of a product for which there was widespread demand, and has since been abolished, was alcohol in the 1920s. That didn't go so well. We continue to prohibit non-narcotic drugs, such as marijuana, and there is an equally ginormous pile of evidence that this prohibition isn't working out for us either.

It is also difficult to compare the U.S. to other countries with regard to guns because of the difference in environment here in the U.S.. The sheer number of guns and gun owners in the U.S. makes for a different set of conditions compared to somewhere seemingly similar, like Australia.

I don't think it's all that far fetched to believe that a relevant portion of gun owners would seek to make their own, should the government restrict them past a tipping point. I don't know what that tipping point is, but I suspect it exists.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#52

Post by fr0sty » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:27 PM UTC

drone wrote: post #21

ChuckMcM wrote: post #14

Doesn't pass the sniff test. Chamber pressure in a .22 cal pistol is on the order of 20,000 PSI [1] The tensile strength of thermoplastic at standard temperatures is 1/2 that [2] and it goes down as the temperature goes up (its a thermo plastic for a reason). Firing a .22 caliber round using gunpowder would destroy the barrel on the first firing. Now I could believe you built the receiver and triggering mechanism on…

He did not "print a rifle", he printed what is known as a "stripped lower receiver," which is only a shell that holds the trigger assembly, magazine, grip, and provides a mount point for the buffer tube and two pin mounts for the upper receiver. The upper receiver and buffer tube/buffer spring are the objects which have the force primarily exerted on them.

In the eyes of the ATF he DID print a gun. The lower receiver is a 'gun' for the purposes of manufacturing. The upper receiver, buffer tube, trigger group, etc. are just parts...

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#53

Post by malandrew » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:28 PM UTC

ericmoritz wrote: post #41

ef4 wrote: post #26

Any competent machinist can make functional semiautomatic weapons. This is just the next step in making it even easier. If the United States ever got serious about banning firearms, a massive homebrew industry would grow up overnight. Gunpowder is not fundamentally harder to make than methamphetamine. People who quite rightly see our drug laws as pointless and ineffective somehow often miss that a gun ban would be no…

Not only is prohibition pointless; the actual harm caused by guns is relatively low compared to other causes. More people are harmed by cars than handguns.

As someone with multiple near death experiences under my belt, I can attest to this.

I have almost been shot once (not in the US), but I've have had a little over a half dozen near misses in cars (several countries, as driver, passenger and pedestrian/cyclist) and two near drownings (not in US).

Of all possible dangers I may encounter, cars easily worry me the most.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#54

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:29 PM UTC

jakeonthemove wrote: post #35

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh . I have downloaded complete plans that were created in 1972 to make an entire .22 caliber single shot pistol by hand using a hacksaw, file and drill press. By my estimation, it can be done in one long day of work by a semi-skilled person. An even simpler pistol can be built in an hour or two. It's just not hard to make a basic gun: when I was 11 years old I used to make toy "guns" from old hollow keys, crushed…

Yes, but the quality of a good 3D printed gun will be better and it's easier to download the blueprints and literally print them rather than understand and build the gun yourself. I, too, used to stuff firecrackers down a pipe and shoot steel balls (from bearings) when I was a kid - it was fun, what can I say :-)...

Hah, that sounds like fun. The best I could ever get my hands on was raw corn kernels, party balloons, and a short section of garden hose.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#55

Post by learc83 » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:29 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #36

ef4 wrote: post #26

Any competent machinist can make functional semiautomatic weapons. This is just the next step in making it even easier. If the United States ever got serious about banning firearms, a massive homebrew industry would grow up overnight. Gunpowder is not fundamentally harder to make than methamphetamine. People who quite rightly see our drug laws as pointless and ineffective somehow often miss that a gun ban would be no…

> If the United States ever got serious about banning firearms, a massive homebrew industry would grow up overnight. Do you have any stats or experience to back that up? It might happen, but you are stating as fact something that's not been tested. Anecdotally, in Australia where gun laws are very strict, it's difficult to get firearms. Yes, serious hardened criminals still get their hands on them, which certainly is…

>With a murder rate twice any other developed country[1], the United States clearly has a serious violence problem, and taking guns out of the hands of the average Joe would surely help reduce it.

How much or our gun violence do you think can be attributed to average Joe killing his neighbor. Ordinary law abiding citizens killing each other is definitely not what makes our gun homicide rate higher than Australia's.

The vast majority of gun violence happens as a direct result of other crimes, usually drug or gang related-- exactly the kind of people who will find a way to make guns.

Additionally America is not Australia, we have more guns than people. If guns were outlawed the vast majority of criminals would still easily be able to get their hands on guns for the next 50 years. The only thing you would accomplish is to take them away from law abiding citizens, who statistics show aren't the problem anyway.

One more difference between America and Australia. If what happened in Australia happened here (anything like government confiscation), there would be riots, and a serious insurgency (I'm dead serious). There would be so much more blood spilled by an attempt to take away American's guns than could possibly be prevented by doing so.

>Do you have any stats or experience to back that up? It might happen, but you are stating as fact something that's not been tested.

After the violence stopped, yeah the people involved would switch right over to manufacturing underground firearms.

If you haven't lived in a rural area of the U.S., you can't possibly know how serious many people here are about their firearms--hell, it's written into our constitution.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#56

Post by angersock » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:29 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #38

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. See my post about making guns by hand. As a 12 year old boy I was making gunpowder from drugstore items and launching rockets made from rolled-up newspaper. This stuff ain't hard to do!!

Of course. Let's pretend Billy Bob is a heated rage because he just found out so-and-so slept with so-and-so (or whatever). What's more likely? a) He walks around to so-and-sos house with his legally purchased, unlicensed, unregistered semi automatic assault rifle and 1000+ rounds, and kills the whole family, and anyone else unlucky enough to be nearby. or b) He spends days (weeks?) making his own gun, gunpowder and…

I resent your (probably intentional) choice of names. Were you trying to pick on rednecks/hicks?

Anyways, most likely: he does nothing.

Your option A is silly. First, 1000 rounds of .223 is fairly heavy (that's > 30 magazines of normal size). Second, "Unregistered"? "Unlicensed"? What good is paperwork going to do if he decides to shoot someone? We already have ( http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#background ) federal measures regulating gun sales, so we do try not to make things super-easy for felons and the like.

Also, your option B is dumb. Days or weeks, instead of a fast job with some piping to make a really ghetto shotgun? What does small caliber even mean to you? You are correct that it would be non-semiauto, as the mechanics of an open-bolt automatic weapon are simpler than even a bolt-action weapon (compare, say, the M3 greasegun to a Mauser). I could go on.

Lastly, you omit the option where he attacks them with a knife, or makes a simple blackpowder IED, or what not.

You're just being alarmist and ignorant.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#57

Post by mgarfias » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:32 PM UTC

kwantam wrote: post #16

ChuckMcM wrote: post #14

Doesn't pass the sniff test. Chamber pressure in a .22 cal pistol is on the order of 20,000 PSI [1] The tensile strength of thermoplastic at standard temperatures is 1/2 that [2] and it goes down as the temperature goes up (its a thermo plastic for a reason). Firing a .22 caliber round using gunpowder would destroy the barrel on the first firing. Now I could believe you built the receiver and triggering mechanism on…

The part that's 3d printed is the lower receiver. In an AR-15 style design, the lower receiver doesn't handle any pressure at all, it just houses the magazine and hammer/trigger/sear/safety, and connects to the upper receiver/barrel assembly and the buttstock/buffer tube assembly. People have made lower receivers out of aluminum basically forever. Aluminum could maybe be made to handle .22lr type pressures, but certa…

The M16/AR15 upper and lowers in milspec form are made from 7075T6 (might be T651 or some other specialized heat treatment, I am not sure off hand). Others have made them from 6061 Al.

The chamber is part of the barrel, which is made of some form of steel. Thus, the upper receiever doesn't contain the chamber pressures. What it does do is control the bolt carrier assembly when it recoils, which is pretty darned vigorous - I wouldnt trust my face to a plastic upper.

Also, note that plastic firearms have been around for YEARS. My dad's first rifle, in the later 50s, was a Remington Nylon '66, which was except for a steel stamping for a cover, a steel bolt, and the steel barrel, made of Zytel.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#58

Post by drhayes9 » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:32 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #47

grecy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the United States ever got serious about banning firearms, a massive homebrew industry would grow up overnight. Do you have any stats or experience to back that up? It might happen, but you are stating as fact something that's not been tested. Anecdotally, in Australia where gun laws are very strict, it's difficult to get firearms. Yes, serious hardened criminals still get their hands on them, which certainly is…

With a murder rate twice any other developed country[1], the United States clearly has a serious violence problem, and taking guns out of the hands of the average Joe would surely help reduce it. The second clause does not follow from the first. Murder in the US is heavily demographically biased, and most gun owners are not murderers. Furthermore, will you be the one going door to door to collect everyone's firearms?…

To be fair, this tool has only one use: it kills things.

Whenever I see arguments about how we should ban cars because they kill more people than guns per year, I always think about that. Cars are good for all kinds of things, and they happen to incidentally cause death. Guns are pretty much only good for killing things.

I live in the U.S. I'm not saying we should uniformly ban all weapons, period; I think the issue is more nuanced than that. But it seems hard to defend the fact that introducing guns into a dangerous situation would do anything other than make it more deadly.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#59

Post by grecy » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:33 PM UTC

pielud wrote: post #48

grecy wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. Let's pretend Billy Bob is a heated rage because he just found out so-and-so slept with so-and-so (or whatever). What's more likely? a) He walks around to so-and-sos house with his legally purchased, unlicensed, unregistered semi automatic assault rifle and 1000+ rounds, and kills the whole family, and anyone else unlucky enough to be nearby. or b) He spends days (weeks?) making his own gun, gunpowder and…

Why wouldn't he just grab a knife from his kitchen? Or run them down with his car? Or a bat? Or set their house on fire? Not having a gun isn't going to stop a person who wants to hurt someone else from doing it. It's just a tool.

> Why wouldn't he just grab a knife from his kitchen? Or run them down with his car? Or a bat? Or set their house on fire?

How many people would he kill compared to a high-caliber semi-automatic assault rifle with 1000+ rounds of ammo?

> It's just a tool.

A tool that enables the holder to seriously injure or kill many more people than other readily available tools.

Re: Gunsmith Uses 3D Printer To Make A Rifle

#60

Post by mc32 » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 7:34 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #47

grecy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the United States ever got serious about banning firearms, a massive homebrew industry would grow up overnight. Do you have any stats or experience to back that up? It might happen, but you are stating as fact something that's not been tested. Anecdotally, in Australia where gun laws are very strict, it's difficult to get firearms. Yes, serious hardened criminals still get their hands on them, which certainly is…

With a murder rate twice any other developed country[1], the United States clearly has a serious violence problem, and taking guns out of the hands of the average Joe would surely help reduce it. The second clause does not follow from the first. Murder in the US is heavily demographically biased, and most gun owners are not murderers. Furthermore, will you be the one going door to door to collect everyone's firearms?…

>Furthermore, will you be the one going door to door to collect everyone's firearms?

Japan made it very difficult to own new firearms after they passed new Swords and Firearms laws. They allowed current gun owners to keep them, but they were not transferrable or inheritable. In other words, there are precendents for "taking away" arms, it's not unheard of. Peopple have figured out how to do this.