Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

lkml.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 1001 posts

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#531

Post by Brian_K_White »

tssva wrote: post #407
Vegenoid wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, calling the well-intentioned hard work of others "cancer" is undeniably hyperbolic and dismissive. It is clear that Hellwig used it in this way. To interpret it differently requires bending the mind. Most people would also consider it rude, but I'll grant that rudeness is more subjective. There is an argument that being hyperbolic, dismissive, and maybe a bit rude isn't as bad as some people make it ou…

"To interpret it differently requires bending the mind." Stange, I think interpreting it your way requires bending the mind. Hellwig clearly used it to describe what he sees at the ill effects of multiple languages in the kernel. It was not used to describe either Rust the language or this specifically this particular submission.

It's like the trope of the hyper emotional significant other that turns practically any statement into "You just called me a dog!!??".

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#532

Post by rednafi »

elcritch wrote: post #509
rednafi wrote: post #465

There will be a similar drama when Zig reaches 1.0. There will be a bunch of Ziggers trying to get it into the kernal. The Rust fad is already slowing down. Maybe it's a good idea to wait 10-15 years before trying to rewrite the universe in a "memory safe" language and pushing that upstream.

In 10 years C compiler may include the benefits of a borrow checker but in a more flexible manner.

Or C can get cleaned up and become something like Zig. I would rather read messy C or Zig code over Rust in any day.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#533

Post by dralley »

ww520 wrote: post #492
loeg wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Hellwig also Nack'd the patch that added the wrapper to an independent library outside of the core C DMA directory.

Why would he do that? He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA? I thought he said he's fine with any drivers written in Rust. Just that the maintenance of such including any wrapper cannot fall into C DMA's lap.

> Why would he do that? He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA?

That is the crux of the entire drama and why R4L developers got upset at Christoph in the first place, and asked Linus to intervene.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#534

Post by vednig »

Linux is one of the most complicated OS in the history of OS and both of them understand this in someway or the other, it's still not cracked enough market share to dominate the personal computer market even in 2025, but is already on millions of other devices except PCs and a small change in decision like r4l brings the whole perspective into matter, after the fact that rust is highly compute intensive language and low end processors might not be able to catchup the speed in the best possible way these industries work, memory is cheap to include and hence the decision to include Python was a comparatively easy one, but rust is a highly balanced choice currently which makes the decision more difficult for Linux to include R4L in kernel, hence the dissolution on parts in which to include.

This is based on my limited experience with rust, but I believe we really need to give rust more time to mature it enough to see where we're going with the builds to actually decide on this matter, even personally. Plus, Linux has been keeping the Linux Kernel project alive for so long that he probably already has got the experience of knowing the repercussions of a wrong decision. Being hasty in this scenario doesn't solve the problem

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#535

Post by danpalmer »

vednig wrote: post #534

Linux is one of the most complicated OS in the history of OS and both of them understand this in someway or the other, it's still not cracked enough market share to dominate the personal computer market even in 2025, but is already on millions of other devices except PCs and a small change in decision like r4l brings the whole perspective into matter, after the fact that rust is highly compute intensive language and…

Arguably the billions of Android phones/tablets running the Linux kernel are the personal computer market.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#536

Post by dralley »

soraminazuki wrote: post #528
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a valid reason to reject a patch when the decision to include the second language in the kernel has already been made.

A decision to include Rust in the kernel isn't a decision to include any patches from any specific person with no questions asked. It's valid for maintainers to reject a patch even if you disagree with the reason. Repeatedly causing social media storms to "shame" them for doing so, Marcan's own word BTW, isn't. Rust is young and efforts to use it in kernel programming is even more so. It's completely understandable f…

I'm sorry, but no. Christoph clearly didn't even spend 5 seconds looking at the patches before rejecting them. His first objection was obviously false, and when this was pointed out he fell back on blanket objection to rust without any real technical argument.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#537

Post by wyldfire »

lII1lIlI11ll wrote: post #207
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. Efficiently collaborating on large distributed open source projects like Linux is as much social act…

> just keep being open minded about it and let the chips fall where they may.

It's a failure of leadership to not intervene when discord threatens the group. He should weigh in, or make sure that someone else who has mutual trust weighs in.

In youth sports, something similar happens when referees fail to call fouls on rough play. Players naturally test the limits and then others recognize the lack of protection and retaliate until it gets really out of hand.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#538

Post by Aurornis »

noobermin wrote: post #479
agoodusername63 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posti…

I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.

My experience with Rust and people who use Rust has actually been great.

There seems to be an entire second world of “Rust community” and Rust zealots online who are heavy on the drama, though. It really does feel like an alternate Rust universe.

Although when I think about it, several of my other interests and hobbies are exactly like this. Great in the real world, but as soon as you step into certain online spaces it’s drama and toxicity.

In this specific case, I think this is more about kernel drama than Rust drama.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#539

Post by gpm »

77pt77 wrote: post #522
gpm wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're discounting the very real damage that would be done by Linux a project controlled by Linus and a community being replaced by Linux a project controlled by Google/Samsung/Redhat/Microsoft. I'm afraid that this is what is going to happen with the Linus tree effectively rejecting rust drivers by subjecting anyone attempting to upstream rust code to persistent bullying, but I don't want it to happen.

> controlled by Google/Samsung/Redhat/Microsoft. Can they do that to openssl instead? Thank you.

They did: https://github.com/aws/aws-lc / https://github.com/google/boringssl

(Not in rust, but it's mostly assembly anyways so I'm not sure rust provides much. There is https://github.com/briansmith/ring in rust, not sure if it's sponsored by anyone)

Post reply on HN