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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#401

Post by gpm »

im3w1l wrote: post #254

So I heard some rumors about US policy affecting Rust. That Rust formely got money from USAID, and also the thing about the US government should promote memory safety (or smth like that?) was removed. Could that be relevant to this story, or is that a complete sidetrack? Edit: Asking because the timing is curious.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the US government. This current drama started before January 20th.

Rust has never as far as I'm aware or can tell via google recieved money from USAID. Though amusingly there has been money invested by USAID to combat it's namesake - a category of fungus - from destroying coffee plants.

What you're probably thinking of with regards to the US government is that the Trump administration has been deleting all sorts of websites and guidance, and one of the things deleted was a report by the White House Office of the National Cyber Director calling on developers to use memory safe languages [0]. Various other similar documents (e.g. randomly picked via google [1]) still exist and it's unlikely that this document was deleted because of its contents and not because the white house was just destroying the entire category of things related to the ONCD - even the landing page 404s [2].

That report was just a "this is a good idea", I don't believe it ever came with any funding or support.

It wouldn't surprise me if other similar things were deleted too, that's just the one I saw hit the news, so I'm guessing that's the news you saw.

[0] https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024...

[1] https://media.defense.gov/2023/Apr/27/2003210083/-1/-1/0/CSI...

[2] https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/ - Link from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_the_National_Cyber_D...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#402

Post by ray_v »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

someone " rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=simonw should create a browser plugin where you can highlight and right-click to get a explanation / context of a chunk of text...

For example: https://gist.github.com/rayvoelker/c5f480f46c80a7a3c22386b29...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#403

Post by serf »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #394
e40 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

[flagged]

.. or it could just be that 'the public' has little to add to kernel development other than social landmines that the kernel teams have to navigate in order to achieve technical work..

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#404

Post by ddtaylor »

SamuelAdams wrote: post #393

I cannot find it, but I distinctly remember a post by Rachel on her blog (rachelbythebay) that talks about this exact problem in open source. Sometimes the nuance of appealing to maintainers emotions is more work than writing the software yourself and maintaining your own private fork. If someone could find that blog post (and subsequent hacker news ref) it would be a fun way to compare this discourse to Rachel’s dis…

https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2013/06/03/bugs/

EDIT Wrong one sorry

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#406

Post by ToucanLoucan »

dmix wrote: post #376
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is the logic that generates generic corporate PR speak and a fear of being honest in organizational communication. It's not a more 'adult' world, it's just heavily sanitized. Calling something "a cancer in x" is a common analogy, we know what they mean.

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#407

Post by tssva »

Vegenoid wrote: post #249
cataphract wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of anaphoras. And he's not just abrasive He's a troublemaker. Seriously, code of conduct violation? It was perfectly clear what Hellwig meant by "cancer".

In my opinion, calling the well-intentioned hard work of others "cancer" is undeniably hyperbolic and dismissive. It is clear that Hellwig used it in this way. To interpret it differently requires bending the mind. Most people would also consider it rude, but I'll grant that rudeness is more subjective. There is an argument that being hyperbolic, dismissive, and maybe a bit rude isn't as bad as some people make it ou…

"To interpret it differently requires bending the mind."

Stange, I think interpreting it your way requires bending the mind. Hellwig clearly used it to describe what he sees at the ill effects of multiple languages in the kernel. It was not used to describe either Rust the language or this specifically this particular submission.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#408

Post by ratorx »

hajile wrote: post #399
ratorx wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read through the email thread, I think both vocal people are basically in the wrong here. There is a way to constructively disagree and the DMA maintainer did not do that. The Rust maintainer should not have brigaded using social media. The “in hindsight” version of how this should have gone without ego: * Patch adds Rust bindings to C API * Maintainer has concerns about increased maintenance cost and clarifie…

Both were wrong, but only one was corrected. > If the maintainer (or anyone) is unreasonable, then the only approach is to have someone with more authority weigh in and make the decision to bypass their objections or sustain them (which is sort of the direction this was going before the diatribes). While they were arguing, Linus said nothing. While the maintainer was issuing ultimatums, Linus said nothing. Linus only…

You’re right - add insufficient leadership to the list as well.

IMO, it seems inconsistent to green light R4L and not declare a clear policy for Rust code interacting with C code without adding a hard dependency (and if it WAS declared, not enforcing it).

The only benefit of doubt I can give is that there wasn’t enough time for Linus etc to weigh in before the thread got sidetracked (and the decision became much more politically charged). It’s unclear what would have happened if only the maintainer was unreasonable.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#409

Post by ddtaylor »

gigatexal wrote: post #364

I don't have anything to add regarding the Hector v. Linus debate, who was in the wrong, who was in the right, who's to blame etc... All I want to know is what's the long term viability of Asahi Linux or Linux for that matter on M series chip'd Macs? What's the burden going to be for Fedora Asahi if the work remains out of tree? Has Redhat/IBM stated they'll support it via the Fedora project going forward? What if th…

I think right now Marcan can work magic and reverse these chips and other pieces. Long term it's an arms race and Apple has other motivations to lock the platform down further. They may even get told to make it compatible, but they seem to be willing to maliciously comply with those directives.

I am reminded of the Beeper messenger stuff. Like it's cool when people hack these things together to do stuff, but the community as a whole has seen this episode before. We probably shouldn't be making any choices or compromises to make Apple stuff work, because they are adversarial.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#410

Post by lonjil »

alberth wrote: post #268
mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

And Linus’ immediate reply https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU... (not taking either side, just interesting to read the reply)

I find this reply interesting. Linus says that what matters is technical stuff, but even before the social media brigading, the whole thread was nothing but non-technical drama. So why is Linus focused only on that and not Hellwig's behavior?
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