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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#391
post #165

The frustration seems justified. Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites "not wanting multiple languages" is demotivating. It's especially incongruent given that others have championed Rust in the kernel, and Linux has begun hosting Rust modules. If the project leadership — i.e. Linus — truly wan…

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The patch is just a binding / abstraction of DMA for writing Rust drivers.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#392
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So moving to effectively censor criticism that you can't control is justified? Maybe the problem IS marcan, as Linus suggested. If you do things that are in the public interest, people are going to have opinions about what you do and on a wide spectrum. If you can't handle that, you probably shouldn't be doing work that's so public and visible. Especially something like maintainer work that is inherently social.

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I call bullshit on that. The Asahi Linux intiative got a lot of respect and praise on this site whenever I looked at those threads. It's very very unlikely that this negative depiction is accurate. Please show a specific example of a thread that got out of hand like that, otherwise this is completely unbelievable.

Otherwise I would suggest that it says a lot when downvoting of comments is not understood as disapproval. And that it is a big warning sign when public devs/maintainers hallucinate hostile intentions to other communities as a whole.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#393
I cannot find it, but I distinctly remember a post by Rachel on her blog (rachelbythebay) that talks about this exact problem in open source.

Sometimes the nuance of appealing to maintainers emotions is more work than writing the software yourself and maintaining your own private fork.

If someone could find that blog post (and subsequent hacker news ref) it would be a fun way to compare this discourse to Rachel’s discourse.

Edit:

Found it: Choosing to stay out of the community.

https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2018/10/09/moat/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18181409

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#394
post #284
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#395

I get this impression that the Rust people think they are a stage where Rust is a viral phenom but it's really not. Nevertheless, they are behaving like its viral and trying to force it down everybody's throats, even though I never heard of some software package or system that was built natively in rust that truly went viral. The other day I tried to install a python package and - big surprise - it REQUIRED me to ins…

If you're using WSL, then you can just run the linux rustup installer to have a linux version of the toolchain installed.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posti…

Like others have mentioned it was really the hypocrisy of this guy that made me side against him, not so much whether he was right or wrong. He's a known, certified, card-carrying obnoxious rebel coming pretty close to violating a "Code of Conduct" himself pretty well every other day then his beef with Christoph about wanting to "mix languages" (C and Rust, of course) and Christoph said "I'm maintaining it and I'm no…

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#397
post #165

The frustration seems justified. Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites "not wanting multiple languages" is demotivating. It's especially incongruent given that others have championed Rust in the kernel, and Linux has begun hosting Rust modules. If the project leadership — i.e. Linus — truly wan…

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This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the structure of the linux kernel, the nature of kernels in general, and the ways one performs automated verification of computer code.

Automated verification (including as done by rust in it's compiler) does not involve anything popularly known as AI, and automated verification as it exists today is more complete for rust than for any other system (because no other widely used language today places the information needed for verification into the language itself, which results rust code being widely analyzable for safety).

Human validation is insufficient and error prone, which is why automated verification of code is something developers have been seeking and working on for a long time (before rust, even).

Having "explicit" (manual?) memory management is not a benefit to enabling verification either by humans or by machines. Neither is using a low level language which does not specify enough detail in the type system to perform verification.

Kernel modules aren't that special. One can put a _lot_ of code in them, that can do effectively anything (other than early boot bits, because they aren't loaded yet). Kernel modules exist for distribution reasons, and do not define any strict boundary.

If we're talking about out-of-tree kernel modules, those are not something the tend to exist for a long time. The only real examples today of long lived out-of-tree modules are zfs (filesystem) and nvidia (gpu driver). These only exist out-of-tree because of licensing and secrecy. This is because getting code in-tree generally helps keep code up to date with less effort from everyone involved: the people already making in-tree changes can see how certain APIs are being used and if those in-tree folks are more familiar with the API they can/may improve the now-merged code. And the formerly out-of-tree folks don't have to run their own release process, don't have to deal with constant compatibility issues as kernel APIs change, etc.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote you, but I think you have a misunderstanding of a couple of things that are clouding your judgement: (1) the sheer size & inertia of the Linux kernel; there are tens of millions of lines of code, and even thinking about integrating another language will take time- lots of it; and (2) the distributed nature of its development and the diversity of its engineers; the community is not one that can be br…

> he is still beholden to all those downstream developers that rely on the Rust DMA wrapper's functionality, because if he breaks their code, he knows it'll cause a shitstorm. It is the explicit policy of the project, and was repeated in the thread, that the Rust folks are solely responsible for fixing any breakage. There will be no shitstorm.

I see you responded to both of my comments in this thread, but I'll save us both the trouble by doing a single reply.

I understood/understand the representations, and I am sure they are made in good faith.

At the same time, I also understand the reality of having the things you do seriously impact the work of others and the types of issues that can cause.

I did state that I was leaning on the side of him being unreasonable, but also that I understood the concern. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#399
post #301

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

Having read through the email thread, I think both vocal people are basically in the wrong here. There is a way to constructively disagree and the DMA maintainer did not do that. The Rust maintainer should not have brigaded using social media. The “in hindsight” version of how this should have gone without ego: * Patch adds Rust bindings to C API * Maintainer has concerns about increased maintenance cost and clarifie…

Both were wrong, but only one was corrected.

> If the maintainer (or anyone) is unreasonable, then the only approach is to have someone with more authority weigh in and make the decision to bypass their objections or sustain them (which is sort of the direction this was going before the diatribes).

While they were arguing, Linus said nothing. While the maintainer was issuing ultimatums, Linus said nothing. Linus only said something when social media forced his hand. This is the real issue.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posti…

Like others have mentioned it was really the hypocrisy of this guy that made me side against him, not so much whether he was right or wrong. He's a known, certified, card-carrying obnoxious rebel coming pretty close to violating a "Code of Conduct" himself pretty well every other day then his beef with Christoph about wanting to "mix languages" (C and Rust, of course) and Christoph said "I'm maintaining it and I'm no…

> then his beef with Christoph about wanting to "mix languages" (C and Rust, of course) and Christoph said "I'm maintaining it and I'm not doing it, it's like a cancer"

You don't even take time to figure out who's the commit author.

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