Earlier quoted context omitted.
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so how should it be called, in good faith?
The post above what you replied to already had a good synonym: "communication".
Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
361–370 of 1001 posts
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
> He didn't say this at all. Okay, sorry. He just said there should be no rust in the kernel. You can ascribe bad faith motivations when someone presents technical objections that are already fully answered in the patch that was submitted, and when this is pointed out, they admit that, but don't retract their objections. The original objections are specifically not a case of differing values or design ideas. They are…
> Okay, sorry. He just said there should be no rust in the kernel. That's also not what he said; it's "no Rust in kernel/dma". He pretty much explicitly said it's okay for drivers to do their thing in Rust, but with their own wrappers. You can consider that dumb, but you can't shorten that to "no Rust in the kernel". And "I replied to your objections, therefore the matter is settled" is arrogant beyond belief. People…
He said no Rust (or any other language except C) in any core code. Notably the patch was not eve being added to kernel/dma
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
> an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds Exactly the point. IMHO the one and only thing that made Linux successful as a project is Linus' strong leadership - which has been criticized ad-nauseam over the years; yet it's the only thing that yields results. So in the specific instances (like this one) where he's not decisively, unequivocally, and even harshly saying "yes" or "no" to something, the community sho…
Agree The more I hear about "community" the more I roll my eyes It can be great at doing the work but it is awful at setting direction, evolving with the times and focusing on what's important Going by another story on the front page, I have my long list of criticism about systemd but the "get things done" attitude needed to be commended
What an absolutely awful statement about one of the most successful community projects ever. Direction usually comes from the community and the maintainers just steer it. Little in the kernel comes from maintainers saying "let's do X" and community members implementing it
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#364I don't have anything to add regarding the Hector v. Linus debate, who was in the wrong, who was in the right, who's to blame etc...
All I want to know is what's the long term viability of Asahi Linux or Linux for that matter on M series chip'd Macs? What's the burden going to be for Fedora Asahi if the work remains out of tree? Has Redhat/IBM stated they'll support it via the Fedora project going forward? What if they pull support?
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#365Likewise most Rust efforts going on from Microsoft and Google are on downstream, Android, Sphere OS,... This was to be expected, many of their anti-C++ complaints also apply to Rust, given that both languages share many common ideas, even if presented in different forms.
> This was to be expected, many of their anti-C++ complaints also apply to Rust, given that both languages share many common ideas, even if presented in different forms. I was genuinely surprised when Linus opened the door for Rust in the Kernel for that reason. And the real waste is there: had Linux said a straight “no”, then nobody would have lost their time trying to make this work against all odds. Or maybe Linus…
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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of Linus's past messages came across as needlessly aggressive and insulting. There really was no practical reason for that and just served to alienate contributors, and it came across as unprofessional. You can be a strong, opinionated leader and still be kind (or at least neutral) to the people you're working with. A good leader is someone who can deliver hard messages while still keeping your team inspired. It…
> A good leader is someone who can deliver hard messages while still keeping your team inspired. Do you have examples of this? The only "good" leaders that are strong and opinionated I can think of always comes across as leans towards being an asshole. > Same message, but completely different impact on your team. Let's change it from "you're a fucking idiot" to "this code is fucking trash". It's not insulting to the…
A few public ones off the top of my head: Satya Nadella (Microsoft) and Ed Catmull (Pixar) are both folks who I consider to be strongly opinionated and effective leaders but who don't come across as jerks.
I'm not sure how "this code is not up to standards, try again" is ambiguous? That seems pretty direct to me.
Ultimately it's about showing empathy. Especially when you're dealing with employees who are struggling with anxiety, impostor syndrome, or burnout - all of which seem to be overrepresented in tech.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#367The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…
>Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor You're reading way too far into this. Linus has been publicly positive about the R4L project plenty of times.
The problem is, that he let's a maintainer say he is going to fight any Rust code getting into any "core" (whatever he considers core) part of the kernel, even if it's just a wrapper to make driver code more maintainable. I would say, that's a strategy decision that should not be up to any subsystem maintainer, that's a decision that should be up to Linus, by not intervening he essentially endorses that getting rust into the kernel requires consensus from all subsystem maintainers. I don't believe that was what the rust guys thought they'd be signing up for.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#368Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…
Haha it’s funny that this stuff is still going on. The difficulty of getting things into mainline is why Con Kolivas stopped developing his interactivity-prioritizing schedulers for Linux some 20 years ago. It’s just how the project works.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This infighting is only going to hurt the kernel in the long run. Every time this "discussion" comes up, I walk away with the feeling that Linux kernel developers are unreasonably hostile and impossible to work with. It makes me wonder why new people would ever bother trying to contribute anything. Well, this is your take, as you explicitly wrote "I walk away with the feeling". My take is: The kernel developers are…
The kernel is doing fine today, but I don't think that's sustainable. The average age of the maintainers seems to be rising, and plenty of skilled people completely avoid kernel development explicitly because of the hostility and, frankly, assholish behavior that comes from the folks on these mailing lists. Eventually a lot of these people are going to age out, retire, or otherwise move on. I do think there will be a…
Also it's, y'know, written in C.
I used to know C. It was my first language, and I spent a fair bit of time in it, but that was before compilers started to treat undefined behaviour as an excuse to break reality.
Arguably I'm not smart enough, or disciplined enough, to write C. This may be the case, and therefore I have naturally focused on other languages. Rust, to no-one's surprise, is my current favorite. I've never contributed to the kernel — for more reasons than just the language — but the language would be reason enough on its own.
C programmers are getting rare...
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#370I get this impression that the Rust people think they are a stage where Rust is a viral phenom but it's really not. Nevertheless, they are behaving like its viral and trying to force it down everybody's throats, even though I never heard of some software package or system that was built natively in rust that truly went viral. The other day I tried to install a python package and - big surprise - it REQUIRED me to install a rust toolchain to install the python package! Well, that package went straight into the dumpster (i'm on WSL which DOES NOT have a rust toolchain)!
This "we're viral" behavior when "it's really not" is very childish.