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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#351

Post by buttercraft »

steveklabnik wrote: post #332
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

> no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel This drama included the dma maintainer saying he is categorically opposed to any Rust in any part of the kernel.

Are you referring to Hellwig saying, "No rust code in kernel/dma, please."? I took that to mean just dma.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#352

Post by derhuerst »

arp242 wrote: post #341
steveklabnik wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel This drama included the dma maintainer saying he is categorically opposed to any Rust in any part of the kernel.

Where? Because "keep the wrappers in your code" and "do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this" doesn't sound like that.

This [0] seems to be the closest to your parent's statement:

> The common ground is that I have absolutely no interest in helping to spread a multi-language code base. I absolutely support using Rust in new codebase, but I do not at all in Linux.

[0] https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250204052916.GA28741@lst.de/

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#353

Post by 0dayz »

ActorNightly wrote: post #304
19h wrote: post #165

The frustration seems justified. Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites "not wanting multiple languages" is demotivating. It's especially incongruent given that others have championed Rust in the kernel, and Linux has begun hosting Rust modules. If the project leadership — i.e. Linus — truly wan…

[flagged]

I don't get this what so ever, is there memory allocation bugs in GC languages such as Java?

Even if that is the case Rust specifically is design not to be GC.

Ontop of that you csn do manual memory management if you want in Rust afaik.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#354

Post by DSMan195276 »

Ygg2 wrote: post #92
cataphract wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of anaphoras. And he's not just abrasive He's a troublemaker. Seriously, code of conduct violation? It was perfectly clear what Hellwig meant by "cancer".

Even if you put that aside, the problem is you offer Hellwig two solutions and he NACKs them both. H: I don't want to support multilanguage codebase R: We'll have a maintainer verify R4L is behaving properly. H: I solved issues because they were unified. R: Rust will be mirror of whatever C is, and you're free to break it, R4L will maintain it. H: No.

I'll bite and play devils advocate here - both of those are not a solution to his problem. Ultimately he's the maintainer and he gets the emails if X driver is broken, so because of that he doesn't want to rely on another group to maintain the 'Rust half' of his part of the code. It's also a system that works until it doesn't, the biggest rule of the kernel is no breaking userspace - at some point in the future it won't matter if it's his C changes breaking the Rust drivers, it's still his changes that have to be rolled back if the Rust code isn't updated.

And to clarify I'm not saying he's right or wrong or acting good or bad. I have however expected R4L to ultimately fall apart because of this exact issue, the maintainers have never been on board with maintaining Rust code and that hasn't changed. While that remains the case the project is going to be stuck at a wall - to the point that if they're confident they can maintain the Rust code themselves they should just fork it and do that. If it works well enough they'll eventually be too popular to ignore with people choosing to write their new modules in Rust instead.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#355

Post by panick21_ »

Philpax wrote: post #98
busterarm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So moving to effectively censor criticism that you can't control is justified? Maybe the problem IS marcan, as Linus suggested. If you do things that are in the public interest, people are going to have opinions about what you do and on a wide spectrum. If you can't handle that, you probably shouldn't be doing work that's so public and visible. Especially something like maintainer work that is inherently social.

[flagged]

Basically he has to avoid any community with significant numbers of people. Not liking HN, reddit, twitter and so on, its just a numbers game.

To respond to that by trying to cut of access to any place where many people exists is a questionable approach.

And judging people simply by from where they arrived in a place is also questionable tactic one that we should not tolerate in real live.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#356

Post by soraminazuki »

e40 wrote: post #284
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

https://archive.is/rESxe

This is a recurring pattern I see with drama in some open source communities, where people measure others using yardsticks they themselves don't live up to. People can't post stuff like this while accusing everyone in the vicinity except themselves of bad behavior. Choose one.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#357

Post by cycomanic »

arp242 wrote: post #341
steveklabnik wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel This drama included the dma maintainer saying he is categorically opposed to any Rust in any part of the kernel.

Where? Because "keep the wrappers in your code" and "do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this" doesn't sound like that.

He said explicitely:

>Every additional bit that another language creeps in drastically reduces the maintainability of the kernel as an integrated project. The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language completely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this.

I think that clearly means he is out to sabotage any other language than C making it into Linux.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#358

Post by aeldidi »

arp242 wrote: post #338
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He didn't say this at all. Okay, sorry. He just said there should be no rust in the kernel. You can ascribe bad faith motivations when someone presents technical objections that are already fully answered in the patch that was submitted, and when this is pointed out, they admit that, but don't retract their objections. The original objections are specifically not a case of differing values or design ideas. They are…

> Okay, sorry. He just said there should be no rust in the kernel. That's also not what he said; it's "no Rust in kernel/dma". He pretty much explicitly said it's okay for drivers to do their thing in Rust, but with their own wrappers. You can consider that dumb, but you can't shorten that to "no Rust in the kernel". And "I replied to your objections, therefore the matter is settled" is arrogant beyond belief. People…

No he did say he doesn’t want rust in Linux at all. Now I understand that he didn’t say “I won’t allow rust to be in Linux”, which is a useful distinction to make. But let’s not pretend like he didn’t say “rust shouldn’t be in Linux” at all.

https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250204052916.GA28741@lst.de/

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#360

Post by arp242 »

sdwr wrote: post #313
arp242 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before Hellwig put his foot down as "not merging because rust sucks" He didn't say this at all. He explicitly and repeatedly said he has no problems with Rust as a language. And you can't just assert "there are no valid technical reasons". Just because you don't agree with the objections, or even think they're dumb, doesn't mean you can just dismiss them and start ascribing bad faith motives.

It's pretty clear that the battle over rust is a power struggle. You can't take any of it at face value

So what are you saying? That it's okay to just invent quotes and spread misinformation about people, based on what you suspect their true thoughts might be?
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