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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#341

Post by arp242 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #332
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

> no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel This drama included the dma maintainer saying he is categorically opposed to any Rust in any part of the kernel.

Where? Because "keep the wrappers in your code" and "do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this" doesn't sound like that.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#343

Post by ta8645 »

n144q wrote: post #327
ta8645 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> At least, it was exactly that environment that gave us the amazing product that has changed the world. You need some extraordinary evidence to claim things like that. To stretch things a bit, it's like saying, while male dominated the field of engineering in the 60s (and still do), it was exactly that kind of environment that made it possible for humans to get to the moon. Can you actually prove it? Really? It's ha…

> You need some extraordinary evidence to claim things like that.

No. It's a legitimate possibility. Maybe it wont happen. But maybe it will. There's a reason that military training is meant to be hard though, and not filled with comfort and affordances for personal feelings.

> To stretch things a bit, it's like saying, while male dominated the field of engineering in the 60s (and still do), it was exactly that kind of environment that made it possible for humans to get to the moon. Can you actually prove it? Really?

No human has been back to the moon since that male dominated field sent them there. And when they added women, they couldn't produce a shuttle that could work without huge budget overruns, or reliably. And the only example of a real surge in a return to space, is run by an asshole dictator at Space X.

> It's hard for me to imagine using git will slow down kernel development compared to sending patches in emails.

No, that definitely worked out great. It was created by a gruff guy who was an asshole to everyone, and wrote the basics of Git by himself in a week.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#344

Post by steveklabnik »

caspper69 wrote: post #253
devit wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I didn't downvote you, but I think you have a misunderstanding of a couple of things that are clouding your judgement: (1) the sheer size & inertia of the Linux kernel; there are tens of millions of lines of code, and even thinking about integrating another language will take time- lots of it; and (2) the distributed nature of its development and the diversity of its engineers; the community is not one that can be br…

> he is still beholden to all those downstream developers that rely on the Rust DMA wrapper's functionality, because if he breaks their code, he knows it'll cause a shitstorm.

It is the explicit policy of the project, and was repeated in the thread, that the Rust folks are solely responsible for fixing any breakage. There will be no shitstorm.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#345

Post by xenago »

agoodusername63 wrote: post #292
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posti…

I feel the exact same. Marcan has done amazing work, and his random blog entries etc have saved me hours of debugging time in the past. But jeez, it is really painful to see him say absolute nonsense like "If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas." - he has gotta Stop Posting and keep those kinds of thoughts away from his keyboard.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#346

Post by christophilus »

999900000999 wrote: post #193

Have to side with the one language argument here. It's hard enough to get a single programming language to work right. C is old and stable. Rust is new and mostly stable, mostly stable isn't going to cut it when billions upon billions of devices depend on your work. At the same time this type of ego driven drama keeps me out of the open source community. I have enough people telling me how to code during my 9-5. I op…

Not to mention Rust tooling is painfully slow compared to C, last I checked. I wouldn’t want to switch unless that problem went away somehow.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#347

Post by steveklabnik »

caspper69 wrote: post #271
dralley wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is not what the maintainer said. The maintainer said that for Rust code in the area he is currently maintaining. I think the main issue was, the he was not accepting second maintainer to take care the Rust part on the same area. The Rust code is not in the area he was currently maintaining. Christoph didn't even look at the patches before objecting to them. Once it was pointed out that they were not in his area…

The issue is it creates a downstream dependency on his code, even if it is 100% separate and separately maintained. Once the wrapper is written, any breaking changes he makes in the DMA subsystem will, by their very nature, percolate downstream to the Rust wrapper and then to any Rust code that relies on it. So basically from that point forth, he will always have to consider the ramifications of his changes on anothe…

He does not need to consider those ramifications because it is up to the rust for Linux people to fix the issues. He does not need to care about them at all.

They reiterated that in the thread too.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#348

Post by [deleted] »

artyom wrote: post #201
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds Exactly the point. IMHO the one and only thing that made Linux successful as a project is Linus' strong leadership - which has been criticized ad-nauseam over the years; yet it's the only thing that yields results. So in the specific instances (like this one) where he's not decisively, unequivocally, and even harshly saying "yes" or "no" to something, the community sho…

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#349

Post by foota »

ActorNightly wrote: post #304
19h wrote: post #165

The frustration seems justified. Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites "not wanting multiple languages" is demotivating. It's especially incongruent given that others have championed Rust in the kernel, and Linux has begun hosting Rust modules. If the project leadership — i.e. Linus — truly wan…

[flagged]

This doesn't make sense to me, why is a manual language that requires validation better than a language that enforces some safety on its own?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#350

Post by arp242 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #339
arp242 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"R4L dies" is hyperbolic nonsense. There are many ways/places to integrate Rust in the kernel, even for wrappers. It's not like "I think this code should be someone else" automatically means the death of Rust. Marcan goes full nuclear every other time someone disagrees with him. He's very much the "if it's not my preferred way then we might as well not do it at all"-type of engineer (many of us have worked with those…

Rust is only allowed for drivers, because that sidesteps the platform support questions. DMA is needed for an overwhelming number of useful drivers. If you can’t use DMA from Rust, then you can’t really properly evaluate the usefulness of Rust, hence the effort is basically dead.

People can just include their own dma.rs in driver/.../mydriver/

Whether that's a good or bad approach is besides the point. It's what was suggested as an alternative, and clearly it's something that would work. "You can't use DMA from Rust" is just not true.

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