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Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

baltic-grid.sympower.net

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Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#61

Post by lvlvlv »

londons_explore wrote: post #4

Did they consider connecting to both grids at the same time making a bigger 'supergrid'? If there is insufficient connectivity between the grids and the connections all disconnect due to overload, you just end up back in the two-grids situation that they have planned anyway.

BRELL ring is a tool to manipulate the baltics energy system and pressure them politically. Namely, it is used as a “last resort” balancing system where fast response river Volga cascades are able to eat the surplus (stop producing) or provide enough in case of shortages. Balancing energy is the most expensive and there is really no good way to bound/hedge the costs. Hence a tool to manipulate the baltics. In addition to that, this will allow the baltic countries to finally move onto more liquid and cheaper 15min day-ahead, intraday markets.

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#62

Post by bonzini »

SECProto wrote: post #50
zokier wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were disposed to adopt 50 cycles, but American arc light carbons then available commercially did not give good results at that frequency and this was an important feature which led them to go higher "The origins of 60-Hz as a power frequency" https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/628099 Better question is why did Germans pick 50 Hz, I'm not aware of any comparable benefits of having lower frequency

50 Hz is a lot easier to math (50 Hz = 0.02/s, 60 Hz = 0.0166666). Don't know if that's why, but it very easily could be.

60 is the easier one, in that you can divide it by 3/4/6/12 and have an integer frequency. Probably the reason why a lot of Babylonian math used base 60, which is where our time and angle measurements come from.

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#63

Post by nom »

mywittyname wrote: post #20
Retric wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better question is why does Japan use Both 60 Hz and 50 Hz in different areas? And that’s really just a legacy from early decisions at different companies when the grid was first introduced, and there’s never been a sufficiently compelling reason for either to swap. 60 Hz is slightly better in terms of flickering, but neither has enough advantages to really be a determining factor on their own.

Isn't this a side effect of one area of Japan building their electrical grid with components from British manufactures while the other used American-made components?

yeah, they had to buy what they can get.

IIRC it was German AEG and General Electric

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#64

Post by SECProto »

bonzini wrote: post #62
SECProto wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50 Hz is a lot easier to math (50 Hz = 0.02/s, 60 Hz = 0.0166666). Don't know if that's why, but it very easily could be.

60 is the easier one, in that you can divide it by 3/4/6/12 and have an integer frequency. Probably the reason why a lot of Babylonian math used base 60, which is where our time and angle measurements come from.

60 is easier to factor, but that's kind of irrelevant when most AC formulas use frequency as a multiplicator. 0.02 is easier to multiply than 0.016667 (though at the end of the day, it doesnt really matter, because pi is used in most of the equations, so it ends up irrational anyway)

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#65

Post by ninalanyon »

bramhaag wrote: post #28
mchannon wrote: post #23

I like the site. Unfortunately for this American, having a different set of standards for mathematical notation tripped a "don't these people know the difference between Hz and kHz?" impulse in my brain. To illustrate: When an American sees "50,000 Hz" we process it as you would process "50 000 Hz". This misunderstanding could be corrected by using two or four significant figures after the decimal. That's too much to…

The site is confusing, even as a European: both periods and commas are used as decimal separators.

SI allows either but the document should be consistent. Thousands separators are a half width space.

"The decimal marker shall be either the point on the line or the comma on the line. The decimal marker chosen should be that which is customary in the context concerned."

https://www.npl.co.uk/si-units

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#66

Post by throw0101d »

SECProto wrote: post #64
bonzini wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 is the easier one, in that you can divide it by 3/4/6/12 and have an integer frequency. Probably the reason why a lot of Babylonian math used base 60, which is where our time and angle measurements come from.

60 is easier to factor, but that's kind of irrelevant when most AC formulas use frequency as a multiplicator. 0.02 is easier to multiply than 0.016667 (though at the end of the day, it doesnt really matter, because pi is used in most of the equations, so it ends up irrational anyway)

> 60 is easier to factor, but that's kind of irrelevant when most AC formulas use frequency as a multiplicator.

Is the fact there are 360˚ (2π radians) in a circle, and 60 goes into that cleanly, of any use?

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#67

Post by ethbr1 »

kencausey wrote: post #53
emchammer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shafts are so enormous and heavy that they must be driven by an auxiliary motor when not in use in order to prevent them from permanently sagging.

I assume this sag is something that would only become relevant over a fairly long period of time? Otherwise how were the devices constructed originally, I doubt they were spinning instantly.

They can presumably be fully braced when not in use, but not in the application?

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#68

Post by throw0101d »

applied_heat wrote: post #46
sidewndr46 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US did the same, Southern California was 50 Hz at first. It didn't convert until after WWII

There was 25 Hz infrastructure in Ontario until the 1950s https://www.lifebynumbers.ca/history/the-rise-and-fall-of-25...

From the above link:

    Sir Adam Beck #1 ten 25 Hz generating units were converted 
    to 60 Hz or modified as follows:
    
    Units 9 and 10 to 60 Hz in 1956
    Unit 3 to 60 Hz in 1970
    Unit 4 to 60 Hz in 1984
    Unit 5 to 60 Hz in 1985
    Unit 8 to 60 Hz in 1990
    Unit 6 to 60 Hz in 1996
    Unit 7 to 60 Hz in 2009
2009! Talk about legacy support.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Adam_Beck_Hydroelectric_Ge...

* https://www.opg.com/stories/opgs-sir-adam-beck-i-hydro-stati...

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#69

Post by dapperdrake »

SECProto wrote: post #64
bonzini wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 is the easier one, in that you can divide it by 3/4/6/12 and have an integer frequency. Probably the reason why a lot of Babylonian math used base 60, which is where our time and angle measurements come from.

60 is easier to factor, but that's kind of irrelevant when most AC formulas use frequency as a multiplicator. 0.02 is easier to multiply than 0.016667 (though at the end of the day, it doesnt really matter, because pi is used in most of the equations, so it ends up irrational anyway)

Pi (and e) are not only irrational numbers (not fractions) but also transcendental numbers (non-algebraic numbers meaning not roots of polynomials with rational coefficients).

So, even messier for dealing with than, say, square root of two (irrational and algebraic) or square root of minus one (algebraic).

Re: Baltic countries disconnect from the Russian power grid

#70

Post by dapperdrake »

throw0101d wrote: post #66
SECProto wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 is easier to factor, but that's kind of irrelevant when most AC formulas use frequency as a multiplicator. 0.02 is easier to multiply than 0.016667 (though at the end of the day, it doesnt really matter, because pi is used in most of the equations, so it ends up irrational anyway)

> 60 is easier to factor, but that's kind of irrelevant when most AC formulas use frequency as a multiplicator. Is the fact there are 360˚ (2π radians) in a circle, and 60 goes into that cleanly, of any use?

No really, because functions like sin(), cos() and tan() are defined numerically for "expecting Pi as input" rather than 360 degrees of angle.
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