Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't really settle it, just dismiss the question. The submarine analogy could be interpreted to support either conclusion.
Wasn’t the point that process does not matter if we can’t distinguish the end results?
Understanding Reasoning LLMs
141–150 of 196 posts
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#142Is there any work being done in training LLMs on more restricted formal languages? Something like a constraint solver or automated theorem prover, but much lower level. Specifically something that isn't natural language. That's the only path I could see towards reasoning models being truly effective I know there is work being done with e.g. Lean integration with ChatGPT, but that's not what I mean exactly -- there's…
If I understand your idea correctly, I don't think a "pure" LLM would derive much advantage from this. Sure, you can constrain them to generate something syntactically valid, but there's no way to make them generate something semantically valid 100% of the time. I've seen frontier models muck up their function calling JSON more than once. As long as you're using something statistical like transformers, you're going t…
I went into a little more detail here last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42871894
> My personal insight is that "reasoning" is simply the application of a probabilistic reasoning manifold on an input in order to transform it into constrained output that serves the stability or evolution of a system.
> This manifold is constructed via learning a decontextualized pattern space on a given set of inputs. Given the inherent probabilistic nature of sampling, true reasoning is expressed in terms of probabilities, not axioms. It may be possible to discover axioms by locating fixed points or attractors on the manifold, but ultimately you're looking at a probabilistic manifold constructed from your input set.
I've been writing and working on this problem a lot over the last few months and hopefully will have something more formal and actionable to share eventually. Right now I'm at the, "okay, this is evident and internally consistent, but what can we actually do with it that other techniques can't already accomplish?" phase that a lot of these metacognitive theories get stuck on.
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#143I think the next big problem we will run into with these line of reasoning models is "over-thinking" you can already start to see it. Thinking harder is not the universal pareto improvement everyone seems to think it is. (I understand the irony of using think 4 times here haha)
I do philosophy and it will take an exaggeration I give it, and call it fact.
The non reasoning models will call me out. lol
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#144One thing I don't like about the trend in reasoning LLMs is the over-optimization to coding problems / math problems in particular. A lot of things that aren't well-defined require reasoning, and not just in a "SWE is ambiguous" kind of way - for example, thinking about how to present/teach something in a good way, iterating with the learner, thinking about what context they could be missing, etc. I find that all of…
Humans and other animals with cognition have the ability to form theories about the minds of others and can anticipate their reactions. I don’t know if vector spaces and transformers can encode that ability. It’s a key skill in thinking and writing. I definitely tailor my writing for my audience in order to get a point across. Often the goal isn't simply an answer, it’s a convincing answer. Update : forgot a word
I rolled out reasoning for my interactive reader app, and I tried to extract R1's reasoning traces to use with my existing models, but found its COT for writing wasn't particularly useful*.
Instead of leaning on R1 I came up with my own framework for getting the LLM to infer the reader's underlying frame of mind through long chains of thought, and with enough guidance and a some hand edited examples I was able to get reasoning traces that demonstrated real insight into reader behavior.
Obviously it's much easier in my case because it's an interactive experience: the reader is telling the AI what action they'd like the main character to try, and that in turn is an obvious hint into how they want things go otherwise. But readers don't want everything to go perfectly every time, so it matters that the LLMs are also getting very good picking up on non-obvious signals in reader behavior.
With COT the model infers the reader expectations and state of mind in its own way and then "thinks" itself into how to subvert their expectations, especially in ways that will have a meaningful payoff for the specific reader. That's a huge improvement over an LLM's typical attempts at subversion which tend to bounce between being too repetitive to feel surprising, or too unpredictable to feel rewarding.
(* I agree that current reasoning oriented post-training over-indexes on math and coding, mostly because the reward functions are easier. But I'm also very ok with that as someone trying to compete in the space)
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#145Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#146Nice article. >Whether and how an LLM actually "thinks" is a separate discussion. The "whether" is hardly a discussion at all. Or, at least one that was settled long ago. "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim." --Edsger Dijkstra
The document that quote comes from is hardly a definitive discussion of the topic. “[…] it tends to divert the research effort into directions in which science can not—and hence should not try to—contribute.” is a pretty myopic take. -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd08xx/EWD898.PDF
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#147One thing I don't like about the trend in reasoning LLMs is the over-optimization to coding problems / math problems in particular. A lot of things that aren't well-defined require reasoning, and not just in a "SWE is ambiguous" kind of way - for example, thinking about how to present/teach something in a good way, iterating with the learner, thinking about what context they could be missing, etc. I find that all of…
> things that aren't well-defined If it's not well defined then you can't do RL on it because without a clear cut reward function the model will learn to do some nonsense instead, simple as.
So, I question the hypothesis.
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
But it has to emit hundreds of tokens per test. Does that mean it takes hundreds of times longer to train? Or longer because I imagine the feedback loop can cause huge instabilities in gradients. Or are all GPTs trained on longer formats now; i.e. is "next word prediction" just a basic thing from the beginning of the transformers era?
takes a long time yes, but not longer than pretraining. sparse rewards are a common issue in RL and addressed by many techniques (I'm not expert so I can't say more). Model only does next word prediction and generates a number of trajectories, the correct ones get rewarded (those predictions in the correct trajectory have their gradients propagated back and reinforced).
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#149But how on earth do you train it? With regular LLMs, you get feedback on each word / token you generate, as you can match against training text. With these, you've got to generate hundreds of tokens in the thinking block fiest, and even after that, there's no "matching" next word, only a full solution. And it's either right or wrong, no probabilities to do a gradient on.
Re: Understanding Reasoning LLMs
#150One thing I don't like about the trend in reasoning LLMs is the over-optimization to coding problems / math problems in particular. A lot of things that aren't well-defined require reasoning, and not just in a "SWE is ambiguous" kind of way - for example, thinking about how to present/teach something in a good way, iterating with the learner, thinking about what context they could be missing, etc. I find that all of…
Reasoning verification in the general case is harder - it seems "LLM as judge" (ask an LLM if it sounds right!) seems to be the general solution.