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DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

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Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#91

Post by blibble »

tdb7893 wrote: post #81
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it actually illegal if it's the pet project of the president, who has been given absolute power by the rest of the government?

Congressional inaction isn't assent. The Constitution clearly and explicitly gives the power of the purse to Congress (and this is also the understanding of I think Madison in the Federalist Papers and the interpretation we've had for now almost the entire history of the US so there's no reasonable dispute of this). Until Congress passes a law allowing this the president is constitutionally obligated to take care of…

the constitution is just an old piece of paper if the president controls the supreme court

personally I think this was Gödel's Loophole

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#92

Post by francisofascii »

yapyap wrote: post #45

Man I’d hate to work in such a volatile environment.

I agree. What's worrying is any stable working environment that exists now can become volatile like this overnight. It is more uncommon with Federal employment, but is pretty common in the private sector unfortunately.

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#93

Post by intended »

jklinger410 wrote: post #69
darth_avocado wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DOGE is not illegal. However the legality of some of the things they do is under question. The current government, including DOGE is being operated like “Just do as many things as possible, so that the lawsuits can’t keep up”. While lawyers are busy trying to stop big things, many small but important items will slip through the cracks and will take decades to undo. Edit: BTW this strategy has always been available, i…

> While lawyers are busy trying to stop big things, many small but important items will slip through the cracks and will take decades to undo. So the government is designed in such a way that someone can do illegal things without those currently running the systems simply saying "no?" They have the power to do the things, and then we have to wait for it to be litigated. Watching the cases against Trump drop like flie…

The government isn't designed for one party to decide to play winner take all politics. It was assumed that people would find a way to work together, not that one party could punish bipartisanship within its own ranks, and then be rewarded for it.

Furthermore America has been moving towards this for decades. There has been openly shared plans on how this was to be achieved, for multiple different stages. From stacking the courts, to gerry mandering, to creating Fox, to strategies to stack the SC, to more recently project 2025.

---

I am feeling dumb for having to mention this, after re-reading your message. Am i right in suspecting you are aware of these strategies and are driving to a specific point?

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#94

Post by msarvar »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #85
msarvar wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this regurgitated several times on this site now. This is blatantly false, congress passed a law in 1998 to establish USAID. The EO was made with authority that had been granted by another law. That law does not allow the President to abolish it: > Unless abolished pursuant to the reorganization plan submitted under section 6601 of this title, and except as provided in section 6562 of this title, there is…

The actual law is a high dimensional interaction of all active legislation. Predicting what the legal system will do is hard and often cannot be achieved with high reliability with a google search. This is why lawyers exist. Presumably doge and trump have access to good lawyers. I’m not asserting that they are right, just that a shallow legal analysis is error prone and looking at a single law likely does not yield u…

The OP asserted that USAID was created by EO and that the president is free to do what he wants with it. That statement is blatantly false. How does court decide is not relevant to this discussion, because as you said it is speculative.

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#95

Post by paganel »

jedilord wrote: post #53
code_runner wrote: post #41

DOGE is obviously a completely illegal operation, and I really do hope it will be get reined in before they can cause an issue so big that _even trump's croniest cronies_ have to admit what is going on. For someone who claims to love freedom of speech, Elon is pretty quick to determine who can say what, and how much access to _his_ data people have.

How is it an illegal operation?

[flagged]

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#96

Post by skissane »

mplewis wrote: post #61
jedilord wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it an illegal operation?

DOGE does not have the authority to shut down independent agencies of the US Government such as USAID.

DOGE didn’t shut down USAID. Musk talked Trump and Rubio into doing it and they did.

Musk is essentially a presidential advisor, and legally an advisor can advise the President to do pretty much anything. Even if the thing they are advising the President to do is illegal, the President is the one who bears the legal responsibility for the action, not the advisor.

In really extreme cases, like if Musk were advising Trump to commit genocide, or carry out a military coup, or transfer a billion dollars out of US Treasury into someone’s personal bank account, and Trump followed the advice, Musk might be held legally liable for having given it. But shutting down a government agency isn’t anything like that. The legality of shutting it down is debatable, but even if ultimately held to be illegal, it isn’t the genocide or military coup or blatant corruption kind of illegal.

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#97

Post by zzzeek »

aeternum wrote: post #86
code_runner wrote: post #41

DOGE is obviously a completely illegal operation, and I really do hope it will be get reined in before they can cause an issue so big that _even trump's croniest cronies_ have to admit what is going on. For someone who claims to love freedom of speech, Elon is pretty quick to determine who can say what, and how much access to _his_ data people have.

What do you think about the legality of each federal department having millions in kickbacks to Politico in the form of hidden premium subscriptions? What about USAID being used to pay celebrities but only those that support one of the political parties?

have them audited by the Office of the Inspector General.

Which is not very easy right now as Trump illegally fired many of them across 17 different offices.

The illegality and unconsitutionalism of the actions being taken to dismantle agencies and placement private citizens without background checks or proper auditing / security procedures inside of highly critical and often classified systems are the issue, not whether or not USAID should be audited or abolished. There are proper channels for that. they are being bypassed (even though fully available to the President with all three branches of government in Republican control).

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#98

Post by Aurornis »

> Employees working for the agency now known as DOGE have been ordered to stop using Slack while government lawyers attempt to transition the agency to one that is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act,

> The messages indicate that, under Elon Musk’s leadership, DOGE is actively taking steps to make sure its communications and records are not subject to the Freedom of Information Act,

> This would make DOGE a Presidential Records Act entity, meaning records it creates are not FOIAble until years after a president leaves office rather than a Federal Records Act entity, which would make its records FOIAble now.

Regardless of where you stand on the topic of cutting federal budgets, the lack of transparency should be alarming to everyone.

Broad actions like this should have the utmost transparency, not a team of lawyers doing their best legal maneuvering to keep it out of the public's reach.

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#99

Post by dodobirdlord »

zosima wrote: post #71
mplewis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DOGE does not have the authority to shut down independent agencies of the US Government such as USAID.

DOGE gets its authority through the president. The president definitely has the authority to audit and/or stop illegal, fraudulent or just wasteful transactions. The exact shape or form of USAID is also up to the president. It was created through an executive order, and can of course also be transformed through one.

It was consolidated into the Department of State as part of the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998 as an agency with an administrator and responsibility for administrating the distribution of aid under certain preexisting laws. So it is straightforwardly outside of the authority of the president to disband the agency, as Congress has provided that it shall exist. And it is likewise outside of the authority of the president to reduce it to an inactive status, as it has certain Congressionally-established responsibilities that it must perform.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title22/cha...

Re: DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack

#100

Post by zzzeek »

skissane wrote: post #96
mplewis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DOGE does not have the authority to shut down independent agencies of the US Government such as USAID.

DOGE didn’t shut down USAID. Musk talked Trump and Rubio into doing it and they did. Musk is essentially a presidential advisor, and legally an advisor can advise the President to do pretty much anything. Even if the thing they are advising the President to do is illegal, the President is the one who bears the legal responsibility for the action, not the advisor. In really extreme cases, like if Musk were advising Tr…

> Musk talked Trump and Rubio into doing and they did.

which is illegal. USAID can only be "shut down" by an act of Congress

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