Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
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Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a big aha moment for me. If Gemini can do semantic chunking at the same time as extraction, all for so cheap and with nearly perfect accuracy, and without brittle prompting incantation magic, this is huge.
Small point but is it doing semantic chunking, or loading the entire pdf into context? I've heard mixed results on semantic chunking.
So I can ask Gemini to return chunks of variable size, where each chunk is a one complete idea or concept, without arbitrarily chopping a logical semantic segment into multiple chunks.
Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#63Quick calculation: Input pricing: Image input in 2.0 Flash is $0.0001935. Let's ignore the prompt. Output pricing: Let's assume 500 token per page, which is $0.0003
Cost per page: $0.0004935
That means 2,026 pages per dollar. Not 6,000!
Might still be cheaper than many solutions but I don't see where these numbers are coming from.
By the way, image input is much more expensive in Gemini 2.0 even for 2.0 Flash Lite.
Edit: The post says batch pricing, which would be 4k pages based on my calculation. Using batch pricing is pretty different though. Great if feasible but not practical in many contexts.
Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#64Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#65(a) you have document understanding use cases that you'd like to use gemini for (the more aspirational the better) and/or
(b) there are loss cases for which gemini doesn't work well today,
please feel free to email anirudhbaddepu@google.com and we'd love to help get your use case working & improve quality for our next series of model updates!
Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#66Remember all the hyperbole a year ago on how Google was failing and over?
As if, when ChatGPT was introduced, Google would just stay still, cross their arms, and say “well, this is based on our research paper but there’s nothing we can do, going to just roll over and wait for billions of dollars to run out, we’re truly doomed”. So unbelievably stupid.
Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#67We’ve generally found that Gemini 2.0 is a great model and have tested this (and nearly every VLM) very extensively.
A big part of our research focus is incorporating the best of what new VLMs offer without losing the benefits and reliability of traditional CV models. A simple example of this is we’ve found bounding box based attribution to be a non-negotiable for many of our current customers. Citing the specific region in a document where an answer came from becomes (in our opinion) even MORE important when using large vision models in the loop, as there is a continued risk of hallucination.
Whether that matters in your product is ultimately use case dependent, but the more important challenge for us has been reliability in outputs. RD-TableBench currently uses a single table image on a page, but when testing with real world dense pages we find that VLMs deviate more. Sometimes that involves minor edits (summarizing a sentence but preserving meaning), but sometimes it’s a more serious case such as hallucinating large sets of content.
The more extreme case is that internally we fine tuned a version of Gemini 1.5 along with base Gemini 2.0, specifically for checkbox extraction. We found that even with a broad distribution of checkbox data we couldn’t prevent frequent checkbox hallucination on both the flash (+17% error rate) and pro model (+8% error rate). Our customers in industries like healthcare expect us to get it right, out of the box, deterministically, and our team’s directive is to get as close as we can to that ideal state.
We think that the ideal state involves a combination of the two. The flexibility that VLMs provide, for example with cases like handwriting, is what I think will make it possible to go from 80 or 90 percent accuracy to some number very close 99%. I should note that the Reducto performance for table extraction is with our pre-VLM table parsing pipeline, and we’ll have more to share in terms of updates there soon. For now, our focus is entirely on the performance frontier (though we do scale costs down with volume). In the longer term as inference becomes more efficient we want to move the needle on cost as well.
Overall though, I’m very excited about the progress here.
--- One small comment on your footnote, the evaluation script with Needlemen-Wunsch algorithm doesn’t actually consider the headers outputted by the models and looks only at the table structure itself.
Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#68Qwen2.5 VL was trained on a special HTML format for doing OCR with bounding boxes. [1] The resulting boxes aren't quite as accurate as something like Textract/Surya, but I've found they're much more accurate than Gemini or any other LLM.
Re: Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything
#69I work in fintech and we replaced an OCR vendor with Gemini at work for ingesting some PDFs. After trial and error with different models Gemini won because it was so darn easy to use and it worked with minimal effort. I think one shouldn't underestimate that multi-modal, large context window model in terms of ease-of-use. Ironically this vendor is the best known and most successful vendor for OCR'ing this specific ty…
How do today’s LLM’s like Gemini compare with the Document Understanding services google/aws/azure have offered for a few years, particularly when dealing with known forms? I think Google’s is Document AI.
"Correct errors in this OCR transcription".