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Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

washingtonpost.com

491–500 of 567 posts

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#491
post #26
post #2

I initially thought that this was an announcement for a new pledge and thought, "they're going to forget about this the moment it's convenient." Then I read the article and realized, "Oh, it's already convenient." Google is a megacorp, and while megacorps aren't fundamentally "evil" (for some definitions of evil), they are fundamentally unconcerned with goodness or morality, and any appearance that they are is purely…

> while megacorps aren't fundamentally "evil" (for some definitions of evil), I think megacorps being evil is universal. It tends to be corrupt cop evil vs serial killer evil, but being willing to do anything for money has historically been categorized as evil behavior. That doesn’t mean society would be better or worse off without them, but it would be interesting to see a world where companies pay vastly higher tax…

> being willing to do anything for money has historically been categorized as evil behavior

Even megacorps will do categorically good things if it helps their bottom line.

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the middle ground is to only enforce it on corporations in exchange for the protections given to the owners. Want to make more? then take personal risk.

Great, so we only want the real high risk takers, the top gamblers,to play in the big league. Those who are so rich they no way to lose their personal comfort and are blind to the personal risk - and probably are careless about anyone's else just as well

> Great, so we only want the real high risk takers, the top gamblers,to play in the big league

It either takes risk of private capital or future taxpayers' taxes to create big leagues. I'd take the former over the latter.

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most suggestions of this nature fail to explain how they will deal with the problem of people just seeing there’s no point in trying for more. On a personal level, I’ve heard people from Norway describe this problem for personal income tax—at some point (notably below a typical US senior software engineer’s earnings) the amount of work you need to put in for the marginal post-tax krone is so high it’s just demotivati…

Higher taxes is the wrong solution to the very valid problem. We all recognize that a democracy is the correct method for political decision making, even though it's also obvious that theoretically a truly benevolent dictator can make better decisions than an elected parliament but in practice such dictators don't really exist. The same reasoning applies to economic decision making at society level. If you want a soc…

The alternative is to make consumption the will of the people, so people buy things they want, and from vendors they like.

I think "this isn't free; you pay with ad views and your data is sold" is something that should be on a price tag on services that operate this way, though. It doesn't work if the price isn't clearly advertised.

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most suggestions of this nature fail to explain how they will deal with the problem of people just seeing there’s no point in trying for more. On a personal level, I’ve heard people from Norway describe this problem for personal income tax—at some point (notably below a typical US senior software engineer’s earnings) the amount of work you need to put in for the marginal post-tax krone is so high it’s just demotivati…

> the amount of work you need to put in for the marginal post-tax krone is so high it’s just demotivating This is a cliche you hear from right winger in any country that has a progressive tax system. Regarding Norway, taxes aren't in the same ballpark as in some US blue states. Also, it's a very simplistic view to think that people are only motivated by money. Counter examples abound.

> This is a cliche you hear from right winger in any country that has a progressive tax system.

This ad hominem stuff is very out of place. Why not solely engage with the argument?

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#495
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while megacorps aren't fundamentally "evil" (for some definitions of evil), I think megacorps being evil is universal. It tends to be corrupt cop evil vs serial killer evil, but being willing to do anything for money has historically been categorized as evil behavior. That doesn’t mean society would be better or worse off without them, but it would be interesting to see a world where companies pay vastly higher tax…

Most suggestions of this nature fail to explain how they will deal with the problem of people just seeing there’s no point in trying for more. On a personal level, I’ve heard people from Norway describe this problem for personal income tax—at some point (notably below a typical US senior software engineer’s earnings) the amount of work you need to put in for the marginal post-tax krone is so high it’s just demotivati…

> but I don’t know if people have contemplated the consequences of the existence of such a de facto ceiling seriously.

One of the second order consequences of progressive taxation is that it increases gross wages for higher earners, as people care about their net pay being larger, not their gross pay.

An extreme example, in the UK the tax rate is an effective 60% between £100k and £120k (ish), so people's salaries get driven through that zone quickly. This obviously means there's less money to give to other people.

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#496
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd never figure out who was "evil" because it's just based on your own interpretation of what evil is. Unless of course you want to join me as a moral objectivist? I don't think Google doing military work with the US government is evil. On the other and I think the influence and destruction caused by advertising algorithms is. Who gets to decide what is evil? I take issue with "don't blame the employees". You need…

If your defense is trying to argue about what’s evil, you’ve already lost. Putting money before other considerations is what’s evil. What’s “possible” expands based on your morality it doesn’t contract. If being polite makes a sale you’re going to find a lot of polite sales people, but how much are they willing to push that expended warrantee? > Sorry I'd be less evil but if I gave up my position as an evil henchman…

> I’ve constrained what I’m willing to do and who I’m willing to work for based on my morality, have you? And if not, consider what that say about you…

This sort of discussion gets a bit tricky because it often turns out one person is not having a discussion; they're trying to advertise something about themselves.

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about 30k drones come from a shipping vessel in the port of Los Angeles that start shooting at random people? It's going to happen.

I better get started on building those Metal Gear Rays.

I guess it won't be long until there are drones which can take out drones autonomously. Somewhat neutralizing the threat...providing you have enough capable drones yourself :)

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you could put that on the U.S.'s plate and no doubt America has caused many issues around the world, but I think in generally its a good actor. Biggest conflicts today: Ukraine -- I would squarely put this on Russia, nothing to do with the U.S.; Sudan -- Maybe lack of knowledge, but I don't think it's fair to place much responsibility on the U.S. (esp relative to other actors); ditto DRC/Rwanda Yes, many defe…

> Ukraine -- I would squarely put this on Russia, nothing to do with the U.S. Every kinetic reaction by Russia in Georgia and Ukraine is downstream of major destabilizing non-kinetic actions by the US. You don't think the US fomenting revolutions in Russia's near-abroad was in any way a contributing factor to Russian understanding of the strategic situation on its western border? [1] You don't think the US unilateral…

> In the absence of US actions, the kleptocrats in Moscow would have been quite content continuing to print money selling natural resources to European industry and then wasting their largess buying up European villas and sports teams. But the siloviki have deep-seated paranoia which isn't entirely baseless (Russia has eaten 3 devastating wars originating from its open western flanks in the past ~120 years).

It is important to stress that the money-oriented kleptocrats and siloviki (KGB-oldtimers) are two opposite groups. Kleptocrats dominated in the 1990s, but lost to KGB oldtimers like Putin, who consolidated power by the late 1990s, because they were more ruthless. In the following decade, they crushed all opposition and turned the country from a dysfunctional democracy into a full dictatorship, and then set their sight on their long-term goal of restoring "the lost empire", which includes roughly 100 million Europeans who regained their freedom when the USSR collapsed. Revanchism has always been at the very core of siloviks.

The countries in Eastern Europe were first to recognize which way the ball was rolling by mid-to-late 1990s, and that's why they set EU and NATO integration as their main foreign policy goals, hoping that tight integration into international organizations would increase their security. Your notion that the US "pushed" NATO enlargement is just plain wrong. Almost the entire Eastern Europe was begging to get into NATO, against very lukewarm reception.

Their completely rational fears were dismissed by existing members with the erroneous belief that Russians were motivated by money, and would not risk harming piggy banks like Gazprom by invading Eastern Europe again. Ironically, that made the eventual entry into NATO easier, as existing members didn't think at the time that Russia posed any real danger. The largest entry took place in 2004, as the NATO was being transformed into an anti-terrorism force in the aftermath of 9/11.

If there's anything to blame the Americans for, then -- according to Andrei Kozyrev, the foreign minister of Russia from 1990 to 1996 -- the Americans could've put more pressure on Russia already in the 1990s to prevent it from declining into a dictatorship. But it was more convenient to remain ignorant of the destruction of Russian democracy and the long downward spiral into a totalitarian dictatorship, and remain seduced by naive illusions like the ones you present us.

For example, the entire idea of Russia as an ally against China is ridiculous. Russians don't care about China one bit and China is not a meaningful part of the public discourse. Russia is a colonial empire run by the city-state of Moscow, with St Petersburg having some historical importance. Take a look at a map. Both St Petersburg and Moscow are few hundred kilometers from the European border. This is where the mental center of Russian government lies, and this is the area where their ambitions are. China, in contrast, is many thousands of kilometers away, and culturally even more distant. China is a strange, faraway place. The Russians who matter (elites in Moscow and St Petersburg) have very little to do with it. Russia does not have a huge outsourced manufacturing in China, nor do they compete in science or technology. Russians are completely outclassed, simple consumers of cheap Chinese goods like most of the world.

Instead, Russians fantasize about the "multipolar world" and other alternative realities where they could be a carbon copy of the US in Europe, but they are in no position to make it a reality. The post-WWII Europe with a hundred million Europeans living under Russian dominance was a historic glitch. Russians cling to this as a mythical "golden era" and are willing to throw everything away in a futile attempt to turn back time. Relations, money, people -- everything. Nothing else matters.

These fantasies are driven by the fact that Russia is a still a feudal society that has not gone through enlightenment. As such, it is incapable of engaging with other European nations on equal terms, in peaceful ways, for mutual benefit. And this has nothing to do with the Americans, NATO, or any other commonly presented excuse. The reasons are purely internal: failure to develop past feudal society, into a modern state, run by professional bureaucracy, guided by laws, adopted by politicians, voted into office by the people, serving the interests of the electorate.

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who should develop autonomous weapons?

Who should develop biological weapons? Chemical weapons? Nuclear weapons? Ideally no one, and if the cost / expertise is so niche that only a handful of sophisticated actors could possibly actually do it, then in fact (by way of enforceable treaty) no one.

If we hadn't developed nuclear weapons we would still be burning coal and probably even closer to death from global warming. The answer here is government contractors should be developing the various type of weapon as they are, people just do not think of google as a government contractor for some reason.

Re: Google drops pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance

#500
post #39
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while megacorps aren't fundamentally "evil" (for some definitions of evil), I think megacorps being evil is universal. It tends to be corrupt cop evil vs serial killer evil, but being willing to do anything for money has historically been categorized as evil behavior. That doesn’t mean society would be better or worse off without them, but it would be interesting to see a world where companies pay vastly higher tax…

You're taking about pre-Clinton consumerism. That system is dead. It used to dictate that the company who could offer the best value deserved to take over most of the market. That's old thinking. Now we have servitization. Now the business who can most efficiently offer value deserves the entire market. Basically, iterate until you're the only one left standing and then never "sell" anything but licenses ever again.

Licenses == Rent

That's why it's being tentatively called "Technofeudalism".

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