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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#271

Post by psychoslave »

rsynnott wrote: post #228
ookblah wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

> there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things work I'm sceptical of that. I tend to suspect that Michael Gove's "the people have had enough of experts" thing was _kind_ of correct; there's a deep strain of anti-expert feeling throughout, at least, the West at the moment. (I don't think this is quite the same as traditiona…

Expertise can be of great value, but no-one is an expert on every matter and the rest. And expertise don’t make anyone free of committing errors, or to be drawn in a corruption schemes.

We can have a thorough and deep expertise on some technical domain, and yet lake the sagacity and humility to judge where it won’t put us in better position than someone else dealing with an issue on the topic in a context the other person is already deeply acquainted with, while we are completely unaware of its many specificity.

On the other hand of course someone tightly coupled with a particular situation might easily miss some bigger picture that a relevant expertise could unlock.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#272

Post by taurknaut »

noduerme wrote: post #73

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

Watching Gaza get razed has pretty much ended any sense I had that liberal society is capable of learning lessons or improving itself. I grew up a good liberal, but as an adult I realize that so much of peoples' attraction to liberalism is simply inability to resolve conflict, center values in society, or establish a shared culture. There are better ideals to structure society around, like material rights.

Fwiw i also believe we should dismantle our government as it is not, actually, very democratic and doesn't actually function well and mostly exists to serve itself and its corporate clients. The current parties are simply the last people on earth I'd trust to do it.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#273

Post by Hikikomori »

sfn42 wrote: post #226
aa-jv wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Gaza has a population of over 2 million people, and according to Wikipedia the civilian death toll has been under 50,000. I'm not saying that's not terrible, of course it is. But I'm pretty sure that if Israel wanted to commit genocide there would be a lot more.

It's likely a lot more as nobody's been counting for almost a year. Their genocide has been a slow burn since 48.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#274

Post by sfn42 »

helpfulContrib wrote: post #237
sfn42 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaza has a population of over 2 million people, and according to Wikipedia the civilian death toll has been under 50,000. I'm not saying that's not terrible, of course it is. But I'm pretty sure that if Israel wanted to commit genocide there would be a lot more.

The requirement for all members of the target group to die in order for it to be called genocide is fallacious and not historically acccurate. Was it genocide of the Native Americans, since 'they survived'? Was it genocide in Australia when white europeans took the land from the prior caretakers? The answer: yes of course it was. Genocide doesn't mean total eradication - it means, attempted total eradication . In Gaz…

So what I'm saying is that if Israel had attempted total eradication they would kill more than 2.5% of them.

I also think that if Hamas had the means they would have been happy to totally eradicate Israel, civilians and all, so I can't say I have much sympathy for them. The civilian deaths are tragic but given these numbers I think it's pretty clear that they are collateral damage from fighting Hamas, not a target in themselves.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#275

Post by MrVandemar »

rsynnott wrote: post #228
ookblah wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

> there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things work I'm sceptical of that. I tend to suspect that Michael Gove's "the people have had enough of experts" thing was _kind_ of correct; there's a deep strain of anti-expert feeling throughout, at least, the West at the moment. (I don't think this is quite the same as traditiona…

>there's a deep strain of anti-expert feeling throughout

Probably because the experts are telling them that if they want a future, everyone is going to have to compromise their current lifestyle. Not a popular message. People will always be sceptical and hostile towards people who say "you can't have X". People are always happy to believe people who say "Vote for me and you have as much X as you want!"

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#276

Post by sfn42 »

Hikikomori wrote: post #273
sfn42 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaza has a population of over 2 million people, and according to Wikipedia the civilian death toll has been under 50,000. I'm not saying that's not terrible, of course it is. But I'm pretty sure that if Israel wanted to commit genocide there would be a lot more.

It's likely a lot more as nobody's been counting for almost a year. Their genocide has been a slow burn since 48.

I find that hard to believe, but I don't really know anything so I can't dispute you.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#277

Post by BiteCode_dev »

aisenik wrote: post #146
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember I once stumbled upon pictures of the daily life of ordinary nazis. They looked so normal, having fun, teasing each other, drinking and playing instruments. There is even a video where hitler is shying away from his love companion. This was a shock to me as a kid: evil doesn't look like the caricature of "the very bad guy", it emerges in every day people. I think we failed to communicate that. It was too te…

> Worse, on the other side, outraged people abused the term nazi to call out anybody that had a bad behavior. But there is a huge difference between being an asshole and being ready to commit genocide. > Eventually it means the word nazi lost all of its meaning. And all of its usefulness to defend ourselves. Do I understand that while the United States is undergoing a radical neonazi revolution lead by the tech indus…

No I'm noting that to fight better we must realize what we did inefficiently and correct course so that we can mobilize more people.

Right now If I discuss the events around me, many are apathetic, because they think I'm exaggerating. Because that's what they have been used to.

And your comment is directing your anger at someone that very likely share a lot of your value system while he was trying to make a self-reflecting point. This is a waste, and it divides us.

When everything is an outrage, the outrage is worth nothing.

And while you are fighting on semantics with potential allies, for virtue signaling no less, the real threat is showing a united front, no doubt, no debate.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#278

Post by MrVandemar »

thrance wrote: post #225
ookblah wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

I don't believe in this "natural stupidity" theory, many well-educated people voted red. Fascism is not a natural state of mind, it is carefully and relentlessly cultivated over years by a giant propaganda machine, at the hands of the capital class who stands to benefit the most from the current situation. This is no coincidence that Trump's cabinet is the most billionaire-friendly ever. Total deregulation of busines…

> many well-educated people voted red

I think, then, there's a difference between "well-educated" and "intelligent" or even "critical thinker". I would go on to argue that most "well-educated" people are perhaps well-educated in generalities only, other than perhaps a narrow special-interest field.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#279

Post by pjc50 »

taurknaut wrote: post #272
noduerme wrote: post #73

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

Watching Gaza get razed has pretty much ended any sense I had that liberal society is capable of learning lessons or improving itself. I grew up a good liberal, but as an adult I realize that so much of peoples' attraction to liberalism is simply inability to resolve conflict, center values in society, or establish a shared culture. There are better ideals to structure society around, like material rights. Fwiw i als…

If you hate liberalism, wait until you find out about illiberalism.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#280

Post by sfn42 »

maeln wrote: post #234
sfn42 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaza has a population of over 2 million people, and according to Wikipedia the civilian death toll has been under 50,000. I'm not saying that's not terrible, of course it is. But I'm pretty sure that if Israel wanted to commit genocide there would be a lot more.

Except the Israeli/Palestinian conflict started way before the current Gaza event. For years Israel has forced the mass displacement of Palestinian (ask a Lebanese), blockaded Gaza, destroyed many of the civilian infrastructure, continue its colonization of the west bank (and further displacing population without any regard for international laws). The fact that they did not decide to straight up murder the whole pop…

I haven't followed the conflict closely and I'm not in any way trying to say Israel is blameless.

However your claims here seem very one-sided. For example I've read about how Israel has been trying to provide aid to Gaza but most of the resources have been controlled by Hamas who have been constructing elaborate tunnel systems, militias and weapons rather than improving the lives of civilians.

From my understanding this has culminated into the attack that started the war, and I can understand that Israel can't just sit on their hands while Hamas prepares for another attack.

The civilians of Gaza deserve to be able to live their lives in peace, but I don't see how that can happen if Hamas isn't dealt with.

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