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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#31
I don’t feel like the comparisons to Hitler are useful, at least when talking about the current US administration.

There are lots more recent examples — Russia in the early 2000s under Putin, Hungary under Orban, South Africa under Apartheid — where democratic norms were gradually eroded, and the international community just sort of sighed and said "oh well, the people have spoken".

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#32

> What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And…

Edit: thanks for all of the replies, I’m questioning my framing here now due to some smart people’s thoughts.. I suggest reading the full thread, as there are some interesting comments. I see the obvious parallels to Trump, and I agree completely (and hate that it is happening). But I feel like I also see a lot of parallels to the democrats. Deciding Kamala would be the candidate without any public vote, for example.…

Rather than thinking in terms of "left vs. right", I think in terms of "extreme left vs. moderate left vs. moderate right vs. extreme right". I support moderates over extremists. I support democracy and rule of law. I care about this more than I care about left vs. right.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are correct precisely because both US major parties are on the same side, the side of capital.

But they are not the same. One party is weaponizing racism and ignorance to illegally destroy institutions that have taken decades to build.

They’re not both the same level of bad currently, I agree.

But they have both been consistently working to normalize their authoritarianism. I mentioned the 2020 protests in another sibling comment, which I think is a good example.

This is just the next step in an ongoing escalation, but yeah it is a big jump.

Scary times.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#36
post #20

> What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And…

Fascism took over Germany not by foreign attack, not by domestic civil war, not by subversion or trickery. Fascism came with a whoop and a holler. It was what most Germans wanted, or came to want under pressure from both reality and illusion. They wanted it, they got it, and they liked it.

I recommend reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#37

To make matters worse, this is not only "rehappening" in the US. It's global

What a way to utterly waste the likely last few generations of "civilized" humanity on Earth... :(

Nobody really remembers, hence, the same mistakes will be made.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#38

To make matters worse, this is not only "rehappening" in the US. It's global

I'm curious if what is happening in the US and what has happened in Britain with Brexit actually ends up slowing some of these marches towards illiberalism in other places. Like when people are upset at the direction of a country or current policies, they may take a "throw the bums out" attitude even if the alternative is far worse. But perhaps they're looking at the complete shit show in the US and how unproductive Brexit was and are thinking "OK, maybe not like that..."

I mean, it sounds like Canada is more united than it's been in a long time in its shared opposition to Trump.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are correct precisely because both US major parties are on the same side, the side of capital.

But they are not the same. One party is weaponizing racism and ignorance to illegally destroy institutions that have taken decades to build.

They can be very different, but still both push our governing structures and our thinking in directions that are not good for us individually or collectively.

To risk an analogy, if you're drowning and need assistance, you need some sort of flotation device, or a rope to get out of the water. If one person throws a heavy stone block at you, they're not helping. If a different person tosses you a metal chair, they're also not helping, even if they think they are. The objects are different, and the intent may even be different. But neither helps, and you are still drowning.

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