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The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

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Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#331

Post by bluGill »

potato3732842 wrote: post #155
leoedin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This will never succeed because the economies of scale are nonexistent without dominance in the commercial shipbuilding market. This is what politicians just don’t seem to realise about industry and engineering. People get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising. That’s the only proven way. So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or simil…

>This is what politicians just don’t seem to realise about industry and engineering. Who gives these idiots power? Oh, that's right, we do. Every two-bit is happy to screech about economics of scale out of one side of their mouth but you turn around and pick some other issue that they feel differently about and they want it regulated in whatever way they fancy, economics and long term feedback loops be damned. The re…

Worse if someone does care, the other side see this and reflexively opposed it. So often good things one side starts are stopped by the other the next election and so progress could not be made.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#332

Post by bluGill »

bombcar wrote: post #276
wrfrmers wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the cost of building the house. Utilities and infrastructure (and the taxes to pay for it all) add up. Now, if you were to build smaller, densely, and close enough to amenities that residents could walk or bike to their daily activities, or to public transit that can take you farther away, you save a significant amount on initial AND recurring costs. And what's better, people WANT that! Or, a least, the…

One of the problems is that the people who need housing aren't buying new houses . Nobody is going to spend $x on a brand new house without having some say in it, and so those houses tend more and more toward "high end/luxury". After all, why go through the hassle of all the paperwork and building and NOT sell for the highest price you can get? Same thing happens with cars; the market for car buyers is much larger th…

Most new houses are only slightly custom. You generally start with a floor plan from the builder, and then choose the color of the walls or other minor details. Sometimes a new house is cheaper than a used one because you can move into a used house much quicker, while a with new house you have to wait for them to finish. Usually a new house is more expensive than a comparable used house, but not by much. Even a fully custom home is generally not much more expensive because your builder will tell you what costs a lot of money (if you ask for 8.5 foot ceilings the builder will talk you into 9 foot because those are much cheaper since precut parts are available), and what is insignificant. Generally walls can go anywhere and are cheap to move around.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#333

Post by jjk166 »

plastic3169 wrote: post #57
vuurmot wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

looking at this from the other side of the world, it feels like americans are so insecure, as if they are constantly frightened

And who would ever even attack the US? Massive military spending and they are isolated from all the potential enemies behind two huge oceans. Average american should worry about civil war or maybe nukes. Nothing else will ever reach them.

Fear of invasion creates massive military spending

Massive military spending creates peaceful times

Peaceful times create low military spending

Low military spending creates fear of invasion

Also the Canadians are the only ones who ever burned down DC.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#334

Post by carlosdp »

Repeal the Jones act, get a commercial shipbuilding market going again domestically.

In the meantime, leverage the best asset we have: alliances with western nations. South Korea is really good at shipbuilding, to the point they are now authorized to repair US Navy warships based in the PACCOM AOR. Let them build ships for us too.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#335

Post by Ylpertnodi »

mainecoder wrote: post #199
Ylpertnodi wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>labour (ha!) Where are you, and how much are you offering per hour?

you are assuming he isn't paying much but think you assumed that there are many people who can do the job that are unemployed when the reality is that most or almost all are either overworked due to under staffing and paid well or retired and it would be difficult to just pay those already working more to just bring them because they are working on an actual US Navy ship and can't be bothered.

Pay, and the people will come.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#336

Post by vaccineai »

FpUser wrote: post #225
L_Rahman wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are all ignoring the obvious solution to this. One of the benefits of being a global hegemon is having close allies who are good at things we are not. Intel fell behind on semiconductors and now Phoenix is turning into an outlying suburb of Taipei while the children of TSMC engineers are making the local school district look like magicians. All the US has to do is subsidize one of the Korean heavy conglomerates, p…

>"Intel fell behind on semiconductors and now Phoenix is turning into an outlying suburb of Taipei while the children of TSMC engineers are making the local school district look like magicians." So after a while Taiwan is no longer needed and China can just take it. I am curious if Taiwan's government cares about this potential course of events? >"All the US has to do is subsidize one of the Korean heavy conglomerate…

>after a while Taiwan is no longer needed and China can just take it

lol, as if amphibious assault against a country that has been preparing invasion for 70 years, as well as a country that is at the forefront of electronics, is that easy.

yes, China is building tons of ships. but each ship, which cost a few hundred million each, can be sunk by Taiwan's advanced missile systems, for a few million per missile. Each ship needs to be fueled properly, which is also extremely hard logistical task, just ask Russia. And these ships move slowly across a region that is heavily monitored, making them easily sank. And once enough ships sink near the landing area, it would be even harder for other ships to make it to the landing beaches.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#337

Post by ttshaw1 »

greedo wrote: post #234
jabl wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not always, but sometimes it does. Cavalry charges aren't a thing anymore, for instance.

The idea of a cavalry charge is nonsense. Rarely done, and mostly a relic of cinema. The Polish cavalry actually performed quite well during WW2 despite being tarnished as outdated. The roles of a "cavalry" unit are reconnaissance/scouting, raiding, pursuit. Whether they're on horseback or mounted in M2/M3s doesn't matter. Today the cavalry role still persists in most large militaries because the fog of war requires…

Cavalry charges absolutely were used to break lines of infantry. It just became obsolete earlier than you think.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#338

Post by throw0101c »

ethbr1 wrote: post #319
throw0101c wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both Canada and Mexico would be obvious allies for this Yeah… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_United_States_trade_war_w... > and it would be a win/win solution for less sensitive ships / ship components (e.g. finish shell, then fit in US shipyards). Canadian shipyards are actually relatively busy nowadays: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Shipbuilding_Strategy To the point that some things will not be bu…

My theory is that Trump is playing the Nixon madman strategy w/ regards to trade. If everyone thinks he's crazy, he thinks he'll get better deals without having to do anything painful. And for optics purposes, all he needs is "some win", not something that materially matters. But as with all Trumpisms, we'll see. :\ I bring up Canada and Mexico because using their shipyard capacity (especially Mexico) would be a win-…

> My theory is that Trump is playing the Nixon madman strategy w/ regards to trade. If everyone thinks he's crazy, he thinks he'll get better deals without having to do anything painful.

Have you tried listening to his speeches at rallies? Not the clips or extracts, and not transcripts, but the full speeches from start to finish.

Dude is all over the place. It's often hard to tell what planet he's on.

During one of the presidential debates he went on about immigrants eating cats and dogs.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#339

Post by Ylpertnodi »

greedo wrote: post #234
jabl wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not always, but sometimes it does. Cavalry charges aren't a thing anymore, for instance.

The idea of a cavalry charge is nonsense. Rarely done, and mostly a relic of cinema. The Polish cavalry actually performed quite well during WW2 despite being tarnished as outdated. The roles of a "cavalry" unit are reconnaissance/scouting, raiding, pursuit. Whether they're on horseback or mounted in M2/M3s doesn't matter. Today the cavalry role still persists in most large militaries because the fog of war requires…

It's 2025, now. I would say that drones do better than horses, nowadays.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#340

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

throw0101c wrote: post #213
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the unfortunate end state from that line of thinking, is that the US as a country is a 'zombie', a hollowed out shell, where there are no industries left. The US can't compete purely on cost. We don't have the numbers of people, or education to keep up with the world. We'll end up being just a few financial and IT companies that only have corporate headquarters here, and the bulk of the work is off shore. Of…

> I think the unfortunate end state from that line of thinking, is that the US as a country is a 'zombie', a hollowed out shell, where there are no industries left. An article from 2016, "Think nothing is made in America? Output has doubled in three decades": * https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-manufacturing-dead-outp... Manufacturing share of GDP has declined, the number of jobs has declined (due to automation),…

Wait, is that analysis lumping energy / oil / petroleum refining in with manufacturing?
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