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The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

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321–330 of 469 posts

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#321
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems an unintended side effect of the Jones act was to insulate the US shipbuilding industry from international competition, leading to them resting on their laurels while the rest of the industry worked hard to improve productivity (see Japan, South Korea, and lately China). Which makes it even harder to repeal, since with a repeal of the Jones act the wildly noncompetitive (civilian) US shipbuilding industry wo…

> But there are shipyards in other high-income countries e.g. in Europe […] China is #1, but Korea is #2, and Japan is #3: * https://www.visualcapitalist.com/countries-dominate-global-s... Is Japan a low-wage country? Given that the US shipyards are 'full' with US Navy work, ordering a bunch of merchant marine ships from our allies would boost them and give us trust-worthy vessels. While civilian-like designs are bui…

> China is #1, but Korea is #2, and Japan is #3

Yes, I know.

> Is Japan a low-wage country?

I never claimed that in my post. E.g. means "exempli gratia", or "for example". Thus the statement "shipyards in other high-income countries e.g. in Europe" meaning "shipyards in other high-income countries for example in Europe". Which does not preclude other high-income countries existing outside Europe.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#322
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are protected from facing competition, then you don’t need to actually compete. Therefore, you don’t develop the competitive advantages. You remain at a competitive disadvantage, but it doesn’t matter since you don’t actually have to face the competition… until someday when the protection is removed and you are left to face the more advantaged competition. However, it's not uncommon for a company or industry…

It is already moribund to the point of uselessness, yet it is still imposing enormous economic costs on the entire country. If it's goal was to maintain the ability of the US to build and staff ships, then it has utterly and completely failed, and yet it's costs remain. I have never heard a compelling argument why we should keep it. Without it, we probably wouldn't have a thriving US shipbuilding industry, but we wou…

At the very list ships built in Italy, (NATO partner), Japan, South Korea (close allies with a ship building industry) should be allowed. Probably we should allow countries like Kenya, Vietnam, Chile (random non-nato countries that don't have ship building but could and seem like places that we want to encourage to become closer to us).

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ships can easily mount a CWIS or similar to help with a wide range of threats. Not so easy to do the same on a cargo aircraft.

Will CWIS be able to handle drone boats that are submerged except for their cameras and satellite dishes? They are primarily used for cruise missiles. Watching the Russian fleet "deal with" Ukranian drone boats (aka sink to the bottom of the Ocean) made me realize that most war ships aren't prepared for these encounters.

CWIS have an extremely low radar horizon - most contemporary AShM weapons fly extremely close to the water, sometimes even lower than the bow of a suicide vessel. It's very feasible for such a weapon to neutralize a USV in terminal attack.

> Watching the Russian fleet "deal with" Ukranian drone boats

Most of the successes I've seen with Ukraine's drones are against unarmed targets. They had great success using USVs to attack oil rigs in Crimea and Mi-8s with very weak countermeasures.

This isn't to say that USVs are useless against the Russian Navy proper, but even Russia has weapons intended to pick off surface combatants at a standoff range. I suspect we don't hear more success stories because they're at least partially capable of defending against them.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#324

The nation doesn’t just need a shipbuilding revolution—it needs a broader industrial revitalization. Strengthening semiconductor manufacturing, modernizing military and civilian aviation, reinvigorating automotive innovation, and more are all critical. Tackling this alone would be overwhelming, but collaboration with trusted neighbors and reliable allies could make these ambitions achievable. Luckily we have a real b…

Honest question, is it at all possible for us to have an industrial revitalization given that we have the highest average wages in the world?

I would argue that it isn't only possible, but on track to arrive sooner than most people realize:

* AI models are steadily continuing to improve in capabilities and efficiency

* Massive investments are being made in scaling up AI infrastructure (see Stargate and xAI Colossus)

* Tesla expects to produce a few thousand Optimus robots this year and use them for some level of internal production workload, meanwhile Hyundai has acquired Boston Dynamics with what I can only assume is a plan to take its tech out of the research labs and commercialize it at scale

* Aside from all the other recent and ongoing advances in energy tech and infrastructure, production fusion power is coming; if you take sama-backed Helion's word for it, they may be fulfilling a contract to deliver it to Microsoft as soon as 2028 (knock on wood)

Add all that together, and it's not difficult to see a trend that converges on a rapid massive expansion of global and particularly US manufacturing output kicking off within the next decade or two. As soon as the hardware and software are good enough for robots to outcompete average unskilled human laborers at most tasks on cost and quality, expect fully automated assembly lines to start pumping out humanoid robots 24/7, which will then be put to work 24/7 on any number of manufacturing and construction projects with logistics based around autonomous vehicles.

The overhead of US labor cost and safety regulations will become moot with machines doing the work, while our abundance of resources and first mover advantage on AI will give us a big headstart over the rest of the world. Meanwhile, our low population density means we'll have a ton of empty land to build on and a population size that will make UBI payments comparably easy. In that scenario, eclipsing 2025 China's shipbuilding capacity will be the least of our concerns. Whoever wins the AI race wins global hegemony, and right now that race is America's to lose.

All of which is to say, there's a reasonable argument that America is currently sitting at a firm local minimum in strength and prosperity, which conversely means that China is plausibly approaching a ceiling on its own relative military and economic power for the foreseeable future. If that is the case, it means that the next decade or so may be an exceptionally high-risk period for Taiwan. However, it also means that competent US leadership would throw everything it has at a defense of Taiwan in the event of an invasion; irrespective of any fabrication capacity that may end up built out in the US, allowing a Chinese takeover of the main TSMC facilities would be surrendering far too great a strategic asset in the AI race. That being the case, while Chinese leadership may or may not agree, I would argue that the rational move on China's part would actually be to give up on Taiwan and focus on investing heavily in SMIC and other fronts of the AI race. Invading would at best yield a pyrrhic victory, at worst yield an expensive defeat and burn a bridge with the people of Taiwan for generations. The right move would be to put aside the short-term economic gambit and nationalistic fervor, and instead lay out a roadmap for a possible future peaceful unification or alliance by proving themselves to be a good neighbor over time.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#325
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may not attack the US directly like the Japanese did, but China may want to take over its neighbours to expand. Just like Russia could.

I appreciate the worry for everyone else. Truly it makes a huge difference in global politics. Like parent I am still surprised how paranoid the US seems. It’s almost like growing up overprotected you become extremely fearful. There is almost no practical cost to US with going into war so the result is that US is constantly fighting and makes it the core focus of the society (along with innovation and more positive s…

Symbolic? The point of the attack was to eliminate the US as a threat to Japan by taking out its carrier fleet.

Regardless of whether or not Japan was a threat to the West coast, do you seriously expect a nation to stand by and simply shrug off something like that?

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#326
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the worry for everyone else. Truly it makes a huge difference in global politics. Like parent I am still surprised how paranoid the US seems. It’s almost like growing up overprotected you become extremely fearful. There is almost no practical cost to US with going into war so the result is that US is constantly fighting and makes it the core focus of the society (along with innovation and more positive s…

The rest of the world should be very scared if the US isn't ready to go to peer-state war. - Europe has under-invested in its military for 30 years. - Japan by constitutional decree. - South Korea is rapidly building out an armaments industry, but they're also still at war. - The UK is gutted and unable to afford much of anything. - India and Pakistan are laser focused on each other. If China or Russia feel in an exp…

China and Russia are already expanding as we speak, being allied in the invasion of Ukraine

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#327
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you protect industries you get Boeing, you don't get productive markets, you get zombie companies who can fail all day without consequences and still get contracts because they are the mandatory only choice.

I think the unfortunate end state from that line of thinking, is that the US as a country is a 'zombie', a hollowed out shell, where there are no industries left. The US can't compete purely on cost. We don't have the numbers of people, or education to keep up with the world. We'll end up being just a few financial and IT companies that only have corporate headquarters here, and the bulk of the work is off shore. Of…

The US has been competing on Quality and Safety. I assure you anyone working at the US factory is happy they are no longer at risk of nicknames like "lefty" or "stubby" - referring to the missing limbs that used to be common in some positions. If you don't work in manufacturing you may not care, but a lot of people still do.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#328
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This will never succeed because the economies of scale are nonexistent without dominance in the commercial shipbuilding market. This is what politicians just don’t seem to realise about industry and engineering. People get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising. That’s the only proven way. So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or simil…

> get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising In an environment where information is shared freely and widely. > So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or similar, it will be done terribly. That's a reasonable explanation but it's not exclusive. You can still face these challenges and not do a terrible job. There is plenty of evidence this…

> > get good at things by doing them repeatedly and optimising

> In an environment where information is shared freely and widely.

The whole reason you need to do it yourself is because information does not get shared freely and widely. You practice, you learn, you know for the future.

> > So of course if we build a couple of naval ships every decade, maybe a giant train line every 30 years or similar, it will be done terribly.

> That's a reasonable explanation but it's not exclusive. You can still face these challenges and not do a terrible job. There is plenty of evidence this is the case.

No, there is no way to avoid doing a terrible job when you are out of practice. Maybe you can mitigate some of the worst issues and outperform expectations for someone out of practice, but you'll never be able to compete with those who do it regularly.

> > so far behind China in industrial capacity now.

> We just don't want to pay first world wages for the work.

No, even if the chinese were paid the exact same wages as americans they'ed be able to outperform because, having done this work for decades, they've gotten good at it. They've found new and innovative methods to make things more efficiently, they've invested in machinery and infrastructure to be more productive, and they've cultivated an industrial culture which makes it easier to learn and apply such lessons going forward.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biden considered Nippon Steel a national security threat so the Japanese are going to raise an eyebrow when the US Navy begs them to work on actual military ships

They considered foreign ownership of U.S. Steel a national security threat. Rightfully so. It is a key industry and has to be fostered internally.

The question is how to get U.S. Steel to invest in modern equipment and processes. U.S. steel is one of the companies that invested in more efficiency in their core processes and failed to be ready when new processes went from expensive to cheaper and better.

Re: The U.S. needs a shipbuilding revolution

#330
post #70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a pretty realistic China/US war scenario. China invades Taiwan and then the US responds militarily. I’m not saying that this is a particularly likely scenario, but it’s far from impossible.

China reunifies Taiwan: 100% US responds militarily: not likely but possible

China reunifies Taiwan: 20%

1.) too much corruption within the military. also no real war experience for 40 years

2.) not enough oil to supply all the ships needed for invasion. look at how Russia's column of tanks failed in the early invasion of Ukraine.

3.) China is broke and you need money for a war against US and Japan.

4.) China imports most of its food and oil

5.) Taiwan has very advanced anti-ship missile systems, homegrown and from US. and once a ship is sunk near the landing, that then prevents other ship from landing, basically piling up ship corpses.

US responds militarily: 70%

1.) Marco Rubio's first day on the job was to meet with AUKUS, which shows how important Asia and first island chain is

2.) Trump has said he would bomb China if China had occupied Taiwan under his presidency

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