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Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

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Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#201

Post by cess11 »

sarusso wrote: post #20
everyone wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not anymore, with Deepseek's stuff right? Which is open.

DeepSeek had plenty of R&D expertise which were not included in the (declared) model training cost. Here we are talking about building something nearly from scratch, even if there is an open source starting point you still need the infrastructure, expertise and people to make it work, which with that budget are going to be hard to secure. Moreover these projects take months and months to get approved, meaning that th…

What do you mean, "nearly from scratch"?

Aleph Alpha is a business that has been going for some time in this sector, at least a couple of years with commercial LLM products. It's likely they'll provide hardware and base models for this project.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#202

Post by throwawayffffas »

mft_ wrote: post #177
varjag wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your metric of innovation is the amount of rockets exploded at debuts you shouldn't bring up SpaceX really. The EU had committed to a number of deep space and scientific instrument programmes spanning decades and seen them through to success. It operates its own GNSS constellation. It is second only to NASA. Calling it a failure is ridiculous.

I suspect the previous poster's metric of innovation was more along the lines of: * developing the first meaningful fully-reusable first stage rocket, and continuing to develop it to the extent that no other launch systems are even in the same ballpark as regards cost, cadence, or mass to orbit * developing, and continuing to develop, the only full-flow staged combustion rocket engine * developing, and continuing to…

> developing the first meaningful fully-reusable first stage rocket, and continuing to develop it to the extent that no other launch systems are even in the same ballpark as regards cost, cadence, or mass to orbit.

The space shuttle solid boosters were reusable, the only part of the space shuttle program that wasn't, was the big orange tank.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Solid_Rocket_B...

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#203

Post by MR4D »

askonomm wrote: post #142
MR4D wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money doesn’t matter. The goals don’t matter. The people don’t matter. The only thing that matters is how much regulatory red tape is involved. My guess is that the paperwork will kill this. Read the announcement. Too much discussion about regulatory framework. In the US or China, all you need is some money and smart people. That’s a very low barrier to getting moving forward.

In other words, to be successful you need to be able to break the law and lobby the government? That is indeed the USA mindset, or should I say United Corporations of America? I'm happy EU is not USA.

That’s absolutely asinine and not at all what I said.

The EU over regulates things like tech and that why they won’t be successful at have an AI tech scene. Over time, anyone good will migrate to the US or China where they can work faster and not have as many rules to deal with.

A simple example is hiring and firing people - it’s much easier to make personnel changes in the US than Europe. As a result, US companies can take more risks.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#204

Post by closewith »

e2le wrote: post #198
closewith wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a lot? Before integration, it had ~490 users as an extension, vs ~800,000 for To Google Translate, the number one option. Offline translation has to be manually enabled per language in Settings. Frankly I don't believe there's any meaningful usage until I see the numbers.

>enabled per language in Settings. Do they? I tried opening a French government site[1] and received the Firefox pop-up offering to translate the page. I did not have to enable anything in settings neither is the French language model downloaded. It seems translations are enabled by default. [1]: https://www.elysee.fr/

I stand corrected on this point, the language packs now auto-download.

It's still a niche feature only partially built by a Horizon project (it was almost entirely built by commercial entities - MS and Mozilla) in a niche browser.

It's an indictment of the Horizon programme that this is considered the pre-eminent success story.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#205

Post by MR4D »

jpdus wrote: post #127
MR4D wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money doesn’t matter. The goals don’t matter. The people don’t matter. The only thing that matters is how much regulatory red tape is involved. My guess is that the paperwork will kill this. Read the announcement. Too much discussion about regulatory framework. In the US or China, all you need is some money and smart people. That’s a very low barrier to getting moving forward.

I agree that the announcement should´ve talked more about goals and performance than regulatory stuff ;-). But I think there is a new understanding among the bureaucracy that regulation (alone, without innovation) will kill Europe´s competitiveness and that some acceleration and cutting of red tape is necessary. Can't say with certainty that this will be successful. But that we, as a very young startup that is barely…

I wish the effort well. Any change is welcome.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#206

Post by tmnvdb »

Cumpiler69 wrote: post #135
miohtama wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Europe does not have enough money. This comes from taxes i.e. as an EU citizen you pay for the fun. Private sector often does not fund projects like these as they have bad return on investment.

>Because Europe does not have enough money. They seem to have enough to send overseas and to spend on illegal economic migrants. >Private sector often does not fund projects like these as they have bad return on investment. Then why does the private sector in the US fund projects like these?

Because America has the best private capital and startup ecosystem in the world it has a good chance of picking the big winners. There is no corresponding European ecosystem, only a bunch of small national ones. In fact, European investors are not betting on EU startups because they are unlikely to be able to scale to beat US and Chinese competitors due to lack of market and capital market scale.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#207

Post by varjag »

closewith wrote: post #197
varjag wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sure ESA lands a probe on bloody Titan while its peers crash land on the Moon but the results are "way behind". Delirious.

Are you talking about Huygens? That was launched on a Titan IV in 1997(!) and landed in 2005! In 1997, the EU was a global economic and scientific powerhouse. We're talking about the ossification in the last 15-20 years that has not only allowed the US to leapfrog Europe as the largest economy, but China too. You are bordering on delusional with these comments.

Was that literally you who complained that Galileo was too new? Is Huygens too old now? Well take your pick:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:European_Space_Agency...

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#208

Post by rickdeckard »

badlogic wrote: post #199
bayindirh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that you're unfamiliar with how EU grants and how these project collections work, but I don't have much time to address this with great detail. As a person who's in this type of projects for a long time, what I can say is "it works", because people do not compete with each other, but will build it together. What I can say is, if they have came this far, there's already plans about what to do, and how to do,…

As someone who has lived through Eurostar and Horizon 2020, and who has participated as both a researcher and corporate partner, I can say: it does not work. Unless by work you mean "successfully passed the post-project review by non-experts based on a bunch of slides" Point at a single project of this sort that had any tangible output that's still in use.

> Point at a single project of this sort that had any tangible output that's still in use.

Not sure what is your limiting factor (just universities + industry consortiums or explicit IT projects?).

Graphene Flagship might be an example, with their research on Graphene they contributed to the foundation of more efficient batteries and solar panels, innovation in automotive and commercial products and so on.

Clean Sky Joint Undertaking (CSJU) also had quite some impact on the industry (I think it was part of EU's Horizon 2020). They worked on technologies to reduce CO2 emissions and noise of Aircrafts and contributed quite a bit to the European industry (Rotor engine innovations, advanced greener materials, etc.)

And I think the discovery of the Higgs boson was also the result of a European Research consortium with CERN...

So yeah, Europe is surely not the center of all innovation and economic efficiency, but I wouldn't demonize every attempt to change that...

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#209

Post by sirsinsalot »

CrimsonRain wrote: post #113
tobyhinloopen wrote: post #97

Better late than never. I can't wait to get my hands on a mediocre AI that's 2 generations behind!

2 is generous. 5 is more likely. Also can't wait to get bombarded with cookie popup, ai bias popup, then ai accuracy popup etc.

The alternative is businesses are not held to account. I'd much rather have a cookie pop-up and GDPR notices than businesses have no guard rails against moves that are not in the interest of the user/customer.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#210

Post by sirsinsalot »

glooglork wrote: post #70

Even without the problem of insufficient financing, you probably need to bend some rules to be at the top of LLM game (not just how you collect the training data, we all sort of forgot that Altman was kicked out of OpenAI because the board thought he was prioritizing features over security). With all the regulations and paperwork around EU projects, I can't really see them competing against private sector.

The losers in the "rule bending" are humans, whose creative works are turned into weights, whose livelihoods are diminished by indiscriminate greed.

I'm all for the advancement of AI, but not at the cost of humility and compassion for those enabling the models to be built.

Model building is already a community project, you just weren't asked if you wanted to contribute. You just did. Without compensation.

"rule bending" is putting it lightly.

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