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Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

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Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#191

Post by Xelbair »

varjag wrote: post #179
closewith wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It operates its own GNSS constellation. Only 33 years later and mostly launched on Russian rockets, behind GLONASS and BeiDou. > It is second only to NASA. Calling it a failure is ridiculous. In what respect? Space? Certainly not, far behind the US and Russia and questionably competitive with China. Economically? Behind US and China. R&D? Behind US and China. Manufacturing? Behind US and China. You are refusing to…

Russia had its last deep space mission (failed) in 1996. GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Chinese contributions to scientific space missions had been very modest although am sure they may catch up later. NASA has 3x the budget of ESA. The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner.

It works great!

sadly the results are way behind it's peers, but method is great!

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#192

Post by graemep »

varjag wrote: post #152
misiek08 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It works!" is the only thing that will be visible on web page after hundreds of milions will be burned. I’m observing few of such „unprecedented” cooperation projects from EU funds. A lot of meetings, a lot of managers, plenty of very unskilled people creating mess and few names doing presentations so companies will believe everybody know what are they doing. Same from company side - they need being in those project…

Europe runs its space programme in this way and so far it has pretty good track record. There are more ways to build stuff than the worship of personality.

> Europe runs its space programme

Different Europe. The ESA is is not an EU agency so it runs by its own rules, its members include several non-EU countries, it has a non-European "cooperating state" and its funding is direct from member states.

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Corporate_news/Member_States_Co...

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#193

Post by varjag »

Xelbair wrote: post #191
varjag wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia had its last deep space mission (failed) in 1996. GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Chinese contributions to scientific space missions had been very modest although am sure they may catch up later. NASA has 3x the budget of ESA. The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner.

It works great! sadly the results are way behind it's peers, but method is great!

Yeah sure ESA lands a probe on bloody Titan while its peers crash land on the Moon but the results are "way behind". Delirious.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#194

Post by varjag »

closewith wrote: post #189
varjag wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia had its last deep space mission (failed) in 1996. GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Chinese contributions to scientific space missions had been very modest although am sure they may catch up later. NASA has 3x the budget of ESA. The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner.

> GLONASS did not operate until 2005. Five years before Galileo. > The question was if the EU method of doing project works and it does in very unambiguous manner. As the EU falls economically and scientifically behinds what used to be our peers, it's obvious that it _doesn't_ work. Refusing to recognise that reality is a spectacular example of the Ostrich effect,

[dead]

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#195

Post by graemep »

varjag wrote: post #171
Kuinox wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Ariane have a "pretty good track record". Most expensive bug of all time that crashed a whole rocket, because of outdated and wrong software engineering practice. They dont innovate, looked down on SpaceX, they have bet against Falcon, and lost the bet. Now they are betting against the Starship. > Honestly, I don’t think Starship will be a game-changer or a real competitor -- ESA chief 2024 https://spac…

If your metric of innovation is the amount of rockets exploded at debuts you shouldn't bring up SpaceX really. The EU had committed to a number of deep space and scientific instrument programmes spanning decades and seen them through to success. It operates its own GNSS constellation. It is second only to NASA. Calling it a failure is ridiculous.

> It operates its own GNSS constellation.

Galileo did not start as an EU programme. China used to be member!

What other EU programmes did you have in mind? The EU's efforts not even seem comparable to the European Space Agency (which is not part of the EU) let alone NASA.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#196

Post by devit »

closewith wrote: post #134
input_sh wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you consider for example Firefox' completely-local translations a success? Directly funded by Horizon, made by a consortium of 4 European universities, now a part of Firefox?

7 languages and a feature nobody to a rounding error uses? No, I don't consider that to be a research, economic, or technical success. Honestly, I'm not sure if you posted this is support of Horizon or against? The Horizon budget for 2021-2027 is €95.5 billion or ~€15 billion per annum. If a headline "success" is an unfinished implementation of translation in Firefox of a translation engine (Marian) built by the Micr…

Huh? Most Firefox users presumably use it, and anyway it's obviously essential and extremely useful functionality.

And the really important languages for EU/US audiences are, in order, English, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, German, Italian, which is, guess what, 7 languages...

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#197

Post by closewith »

varjag wrote: post #193
Xelbair wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works great! sadly the results are way behind it's peers, but method is great!

Yeah sure ESA lands a probe on bloody Titan while its peers crash land on the Moon but the results are "way behind". Delirious.

Are you talking about Huygens? That was launched on a Titan IV in 1997(!) and landed in 2005!

In 1997, the EU was a global economic and scientific powerhouse. We're talking about the ossification in the last 15-20 years that has not only allowed the US to leapfrog Europe as the largest economy, but China too.

You are bordering on delusional with these comments.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#198

Post by e2le »

closewith wrote: post #153
Vinnl wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the numbers at hand or know if they're even public somewhere, but telemetry shows that Firefox Translations is used a lot . Definitely on the list of successful new Firefox features. (I'm a Mozilla employee, but I have not worked on Firefox Translations.)

What is a lot? Before integration, it had ~490 users as an extension, vs ~800,000 for To Google Translate, the number one option. Offline translation has to be manually enabled per language in Settings. Frankly I don't believe there's any meaningful usage until I see the numbers.

>enabled per language in Settings.

Do they? I tried opening a French government site[1] and received the Firefox pop-up offering to translate the page. I did not have to enable anything in settings neither is the French language model downloaded. It seems translations are enabled by default.

[1]: https://www.elysee.fr/

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#199

Post by badlogic »

bayindirh wrote: post #67
isoprophlex wrote: post #57

I'm HIGHLY sceptical. The academics will love it, because they get money. But look at that list of parties involved. More than twenty parties supplying people; none of them will have this initiative on the top of their list of loyalties and priorities. Meaning, everyone will talk, noone will take charge, some millions change hands and we continue with business as usual. Instead this should have been a single new non-…

I can see that you're unfamiliar with how EU grants and how these project collections work, but I don't have much time to address this with great detail. As a person who's in this type of projects for a long time, what I can say is "it works", because people do not compete with each other, but will build it together. What I can say is, if they have came this far, there's already plans about what to do, and how to do,…

As someone who has lived through Eurostar and Horizon 2020, and who has participated as both a researcher and corporate partner, I can say: it does not work.

Unless by work you mean "successfully passed the post-project review by non-experts based on a bunch of slides"

Point at a single project of this sort that had any tangible output that's still in use.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#200

Post by closewith »

devit wrote: post #196
closewith wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7 languages and a feature nobody to a rounding error uses? No, I don't consider that to be a research, economic, or technical success. Honestly, I'm not sure if you posted this is support of Horizon or against? The Horizon budget for 2021-2027 is €95.5 billion or ~€15 billion per annum. If a headline "success" is an unfinished implementation of translation in Firefox of a translation engine (Marian) built by the Micr…

Huh? Most Firefox users presumably use it, and anyway it's obviously essential and extremely useful functionality. And the really important languages for EU/US audiences are, in order, English, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, German, Italian, which is, guess what, 7 languages...

> Huh? Most Firefox users presumably use it, and anyway it's obviously essential and extremely useful functionality.

~~Only Firefox users who explicitly enable offline translation per langauge in Settings use this feature~~, which will be a tiny minority of users in a browser with a tiny (~2.5%) market share.

I'm wrong, the language packs now auto-download.

> And the really important languages for EU/US audiences are, in order, English, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, German, Italian, which is, guess what, 7 languages...

Well, those weren't the seven languages supported by the Bergamot project when it ended. Only two of your seven were supported: Bulgarian, Czech, English, Estonian, French, Polish, and Spanish.

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