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AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

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Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#221

Post by troupo »

scarface_74 wrote: post #67
Kbelicius wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s just the problem. Meta was going to give users a choice between paying with “private data” or paying money. Well, per GDPR they aren't allowed to do that. Are they giving that option to users outside of EU? Why Not? > The EU won’t let people make that choice are you saying people in the EU are too dumb to decide for themselves? No I do not think that. What made you think that I think that? What about sex and…

> Well, per GDPR they aren't allowed to do that. Are they giving that option to users outside of EU? Why Not? Because no other place thinks that their citizens are too dumb to make informed choices. > What about sex and organs? In your opinion should businesses be allowed to charge you with those? If consenting adults decide they want to have sex as a financial arrangement why not? Do you think these 25 year old “gir…

> Because no other place thinks that their citizens are too dumb to make informed choices.

In case of Facebook (or tracking generally) you had no chance to make an informed choice. You are just tracked, and your data is sold to hundreds of "partners" with no possibility to say "no"

> Just like right now, HN knows my email address and my comment history and where I access this site from.

And that is fine. You'd know that if you spent about one afternoon reading through GDPR, a regulation that has been around for 8 years.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#222

Post by wtcactus »

I guess that’s how the EU is expecting to catch to the rest of the world in AI… by imposing even more regulation.

It’s maddening that a group on non elected politicians and their friends have this kind of power and are using it to destroy Europe and our future.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#223

Post by ImageXav »

johndhi wrote: post #133
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems very reasonable. Not all software has the same risk profile, and autonomous+adaptive software certainly have a more dangerous profile than simpler software, and should be regulated differently.

What? Why? Shouldn't those same use cases all be banned regardless of what tech is used to build them?

Not necessarily. Interpretability of a system used to make decisions is more important in some contexts than others. For example, a black box AI used to make judiciary decisions would completely remove transparency from a system that requires careful oversight. It seems to me that the intent of the legislation is to avoid such cases from popping up, so that people can contest decisions made that would have a material impact on them, and that organisations can provide traceable reasoning.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#224

Post by barrenko »

hirokio123 wrote: post #158

In the EU, no risk is ever tolerated. They keep creating laws to regulate things, but do they ever measure the actual impact? With so many regulations, it must be hard to move freely. There should also be a system for repealing regulations.

They don't, Brussels will just produce some 600k undecipherable pages on this topic, waste honest workers money to keep it's bureaucrat caste afloat.

With time this is worsening, the caste is ever bigger, and the system will not change until a WW2 type situation.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#225

Post by hkwerf »

kazinator wrote: post #116

OK, so certain documents are allowed to exist out there; they are not banned. But if you train a mathematical function to provide a very clever form of access to those documents, that is banned. That is similar to, say, some substance being banned above a certain concentration. Information from AI is like moonshine. Too concentrated; too dangerous. There could be methyl alcohol in there that will make you go blind. M…

Training that function is not banned. Concentrating information is not banned. I have no idea where you're taking that from.

Only making use (i.e. putting into service a product containing it or placing that product on the market) of that function in a manner that is listed in article 5 (which is quite terse and reasonable) is prohibited unless covered by an exception.

Making use of that function in a manner that may be high-risk (see article 6 and annex III, also quite terse and reasonable) leads to the requirement of either documenting why it isn't high-risk or employing measures to ensure that the risk is acceptable (see article 9, item 5).

IANAL

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#226

Post by danielscrubs »

scarface_74 wrote: post #65
Kbelicius wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU right now is telling Meta that it is illegal to give users the option of either ads based on behavior on the platform or charging a monthly subscription fee. And? With GDPR the EU decided that private data cannot be used as a form of payment. It can only be voluntarily given. Similarly to using ones body. You can fuck whoever you want and you can give your organs if you so choose but no business is allowed t…

That’s just the problem. Meta was going to give users a choice between paying with “private data” or paying money. The EU won’t let people make that choice are you saying people in the EU are too dumb to decide for themselves? But how is your data that you give to Facebook “private” to you? Facebook isn’t sharing your data to others. Ad buyers tell Facebook “Put this ad in front of people between 25-30 who look at pa…

WeChat would exit on Android if you didn’t give your contact list to them, but this behaviour wasn’t allowed on iOS by our Apple overlords and Im quite happy about that.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#227

Post by logifail »

cabalamat wrote: post #217
spacemanspiff01 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the laws text: For the purposes of this Regulation, the following definitions apply: (1) ‘AI system’ means a machine-based system that is designed to operate with varying levels of autonomy and that may exhibit adaptiveness after deployment, and that, for explicit or implicit objectives, infers, from the input it receives, how to generate outputs such as predictions, content, recommendations, or decisions that c…

> and that may exhibit adaptiveness after deployment So if an AI can't change its weights after deployment, it's not really an AI? That doesn't make sense. As for the other criteria, they're so vague I think a thermostat might apply.

> they're so vague I think a thermostat might apply

Quite.

One wonders if the people who came up with this have any actual understanding of the technology they're attempting to regulate.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#228

Post by hkwerf »

waltercool wrote: post #73

Oh nooo, that will stop everyone from using AI systems. Do European politicians understand that those laws are usually dead? There is no way a law like that can be enforced except by large companies. Also, this kind of laws would make Europeans to stay at the loser side of the AI competition as China and mostly every US corporation doesn't care about that.

> There is no way a law like that can be enforced except by large companies.

Other fields have very similar laws in the EU and there's lots of tiny companies able to comply with those. The risk control required by this law is the same that's required by so many other EU laws. Most companies that make high-risk products have no problem at all implementing that.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#229

Post by ahoka »

philipov wrote: post #195
maxrmk wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what they intended this to apply to. LLM based systems don't change their own operation (at least, not more so than anything with a database). We'll probably have to wait until they fine someone a zillion dollars to figure out what they actually meant.

It's as if the person who wrote it, their entire understanding of AI is based solely on depictions from science fiction.

I'm pretty sure that was not the case.

Re: AI systems with 'unacceptable risk' are now banned in the EU

#230

Post by jorisboris »

dmix wrote: post #121
layer8 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote is inaccurate. The actual wording is: "the placing on the market, the putting into service for this specific purpose, or the use of AI systems to infer emotions of a natural person in the areas of workplace and education institutions, except where the use of the AI system is intended to be put in place or into the market for medical or safety reasons;" and it links to https://artificialintelligenceact.eu/r…

Is this just based on hypothetical scenario they sat in a room coming up with or has such a thing been tried and harmed people?

I once tried building a Macbook app which lowers my music volume when I'm not smiling, to try to stimulate more happy emotions (forcing yourself to smile induces happy feelings)

Then I started thinking how this could be used in restaurants to see if waiters smile to the people they are serving Or in customer service (you can actually hear it when people smile on the phone)

Then I realised that this kind of tech would definitely lead to abuse

(btw that's not the reason I didn't build it, it was just not that easy to build)

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