Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

openeurollm.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 289 posts

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#91

Post by closewith »

bayindirh wrote: post #84
menaerus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely see this type of collaboration as a very inefficient form of a distributed company (team) where members of that team do not have other incentive but to (mostly) collect points on research papers. There is no incentive to actually build a product in such a setting and there is no incentive to remain competitive since you cannot be fired, or penalized in some other form. And generally speaking, as an individu…

This is a Horizon grant, meaning: - There's continuous reporting, and money is not guaranteed. - You can be removed from the project by not meeting project goals on time. - (In this case) There are corporations which are planning to commercialize this thing. - There's a concrete and sound roadmap, and it's evaluated in a competition by an independent body and got selected. - Without a sound landscape survey, you can'…

> IOW, these kinds of projects are not parades for free money.

No, they are subsidies for uncompetitive R&D teams. They are spectacularly inefficient, for all the reasons you mention. Teams specialise in Horizon funding, not actual progress.

> Lastly, I don't get the grant money. It's just deposited to institution account. I have no monetary or material gain from this.

Aha, so your team is funded by Horizon. What's the old saying about people and understanding where their paycheques come from?

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#92

Post by miohtama »

bayindirh wrote: post #68
tmikaeld wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

” The models will be developed within Europe's robust regulatory framework, ensuring alignment with European values while maintaining technological excellence.” They may release something, but i doubt it will be more useful than what already exists.

> They may release something, but i doubt it will be more useful than what already exists. I wouldn't put such prejudice in this thing. I'm not implying that you're wrong, but I'm highly skeptical that the model will be incompetent or inferior. Also, don't forget. They'll open source it end to end. From data to training/testing code and everything in between.

The model itself might be useful in the end. But it's terrible industrial policy to kill your startups with regulation and then the state needs to step in, because private companies no longer want to work with you, or no new companies are created.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#93

Post by thorianus »

lodovic wrote: post #69
wg0 wrote: post #44

United we stand, divided we fall. More than LLMs, Europe needs chip autonomy. ASAP. Own fabs, own IP.

Europe has ARM, AMD and ASML, but everything is produced elsewhere. Time to build giant automated chip fabs.

"automated" is the issue when producing chips. You can automate some to a certain level of nm. Have you seen the labor needed for maintaing a single modern ASML machine? Also we got a lot, but Japan has the tools to verify results.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#94

Post by maksimur »

menaerus wrote: post #78
bayindirh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that you're unfamiliar with how EU grants and how these project collections work, but I don't have much time to address this with great detail. As a person who's in this type of projects for a long time, what I can say is "it works", because people do not compete with each other, but will build it together. What I can say is, if they have came this far, there's already plans about what to do, and how to do,…

I largely see this type of collaboration as a very inefficient form of a distributed company (team) where members of that team do not have other incentive but to (mostly) collect points on research papers. There is no incentive to actually build a product in such a setting and there is no incentive to remain competitive since you cannot be fired, or penalized in some other form. And generally speaking, as an individu…

> There is no incentive to actually build a product in such a setting and there is no incentive to remain competitive since you cannot be fired, or penalized in some other form

That sounds horrible and stressful to be honest.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#95

Post by 627467 »

microtonal wrote: post #65
rixed wrote: post #58

This article stayed on the front page of HN for a couple of days: https://timsh.org/tracking-myself-down-through-in-app-ads/ The author was in Europe. Aparently, all the rules protecting the privacy of european citizens make no difference in practice. I wonder why, but I believe the EU will look into this soon, since it would be so unconfortable if the king were bad.

Or it just takes time to enforce the regulations. As an EU citizen, the recent regulations have already helped me a lot - a lot of companies provide data takeout now, it has become easier to remove accounts, many more websites ask specific consent, etc. Or even small things, our daughter's school has to ask specific consent if they can make photos and where they can post them (of group activities, etc.). Does everyon…

> our daughter's school has to ask specific consent if they can make photos and where they can post them

The result of this is we don't see anything out daughter does in school because school decides to comply with draconian regulation by saying "fuck it". The same applies to having parents present daily: we don't touch the grounds of the school unless we make a formal request, we don't see the teacher everyday, we don't hear how the day went from professionals who actually spent time with them. This is all 100% the opposite of our experience outside of Europe before moving and I'm comparing public school system in a third world country to an European one. It's just an anecdote but it hasn't been more clear to me how much in a death spiral the EU is than the experience we currently are having

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#96

Post by isoprophlex »

closewith wrote: post #91
bayindirh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a Horizon grant, meaning: - There's continuous reporting, and money is not guaranteed. - You can be removed from the project by not meeting project goals on time. - (In this case) There are corporations which are planning to commercialize this thing. - There's a concrete and sound roadmap, and it's evaluated in a competition by an independent body and got selected. - Without a sound landscape survey, you can'…

> IOW, these kinds of projects are not parades for free money. No, they are subsidies for uncompetitive R&D teams. They are spectacularly inefficient, for all the reasons you mention. Teams specialise in Horizon funding, not actual progress. > Lastly, I don't get the grant money. It's just deposited to institution account. I have no monetary or material gain from this. Aha, so your team is funded by Horizon. What's t…

"Yeah uh you don't understand how this works. I don't have the time to tell you why, just believe me, it works. Oh also they give us money."

I'm not entirely convinced...

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#99

Post by misiek08 »

bayindirh wrote: post #67
isoprophlex wrote: post #57

I'm HIGHLY sceptical. The academics will love it, because they get money. But look at that list of parties involved. More than twenty parties supplying people; none of them will have this initiative on the top of their list of loyalties and priorities. Meaning, everyone will talk, noone will take charge, some millions change hands and we continue with business as usual. Instead this should have been a single new non-…

I can see that you're unfamiliar with how EU grants and how these project collections work, but I don't have much time to address this with great detail. As a person who's in this type of projects for a long time, what I can say is "it works", because people do not compete with each other, but will build it together. What I can say is, if they have came this far, there's already plans about what to do, and how to do,…

"It works!" is the only thing that will be visible on web page after hundreds of milions will be burned. I’m observing few of such „unprecedented” cooperation projects from EU funds. A lot of meetings, a lot of managers, plenty of very unskilled people creating mess and few names doing presentations so companies will believe everybody know what are they doing. Same from company side - they need being in those projects to comply with stupid EU rules about being eco.

Ball of mud.

Re: Open Euro LLM: Open LLMs for Transparent AI in Europe

#100

Post by misiek08 »

bayindirh wrote: post #88
closewith wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see that you're unfamiliar with how EU grants and how these project collections work, but I don't have much time to address this with great detail. This is a take that can only come from someone who is dependent on Horizon, because I don't think any independent observer could look at Horizon projects and say they just work.

> This is a take that can only come from someone who is dependent on Horizon. No, I'm not dependent on Horizon Programme. I just look at what we did, the outcomes, and talk from that point. Maybe our sphere is one of the ones which deliver. I can't see the whole thing, it's too big to observe. Even if we're in the 5% which delivers, which is same with the startup scene, which is loudly applauded because it's an incre…

You are maybe in 0.005%. If project has even a presentation at the end it’s already being considered successful. And I thought it’s maybe Poland only, but Germant and France is the same (I’ve seen this myself, not heard from 3rd party)
Post reply on HN