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The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

cantoscrolls.com

31–40 of 56 posts

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#31
Pretty cool! I've been living in HK for 7 years now and not moved past the basic few phrases - mostly because English gets you so far there's no "forcing factor" (vs. in Tokyo you'd be kinda forced to learn Japanese).

One suggestion, though it would be quite high effort: have you considered also adding a button or something for the pronunciation? I think the hardest part for learners is knowing their reading of the jyutping sounds correct (especially with all the tones).

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#32
post #27

Right off the bat, 小念頭, siu2 lim6 tau4 seems to be incorrectly romanized. 念 should be nim6, not lim6. lim6 is what we call 懶音 (literally "lazy pronunciation"). The statement that "Cantonese has no formal standardization for its phonetic and writing systems" deserves a better explanation. There are in fact multiple standards, as can be seen on the website of the Multi-function Chinese Character Database developed by t…

I'm aware of this and I've made a conscious decision to use the lazy pronunciation. I'm actually thinking of switching to lazy pronunciation as the standard pronunciation for a lot of words, the same as what some authors have done. It's more difficult and weird to teach people a pronunciation that not many people are using. At this point the lazy pronunciation has pretty much dominated the normal language development.

我都打詠春。喺學院,我師傅同埋我哋都話"lim". 如果你話"nim"會係好奇怪。我推介你試吓明粵卷唔使係一百%啱。如果係八十到九十%啱同大部分人明你講乜嘢,我覺得OK。學生可以繼續學廣東話。越來越好。

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#33

Pretty cool! I've been living in HK for 7 years now and not moved past the basic few phrases - mostly because English gets you so far there's no "forcing factor" (vs. in Tokyo you'd be kinda forced to learn Japanese). One suggestion, though it would be quite high effort: have you considered also adding a button or something for the pronunciation? I think the hardest part for learners is knowing their reading of the j…

Good question. I have actually and was recently playing around with that. The problem isn't necessarily the recordings (since I've accepted that I'm willing to record all the possible Cantonese sounds for all the words myself - I'm not a fan of AI and I don't use it in my personal life if I can avoid it), but more because of the nature of the project. I haven't figured out a way to be able to get the base directory of the site so that I can load all of the audio files from a specific directory, specially when being used in offline mode. If I was only running this project from a webserver, it's easy to get the website root and just append the audio location, but if you download the project for offline use, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to access the base dir from the file:// protocol perspective. I have some ideas but I'll need to experiment with that over time. As a stop gap measure I've added the "Core Audio Reference" page which is my recordings of all of the tones, initials, and finals. But it's still not the best experience.

Once I figure out the base dir thing I'll be able to easily just make every automatic romanization that you see an a href which points to the mp3.

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#34
post #10

> - Characters starting with the vowel i sound more an e. Therefore, "to invite", 請 (cing2), sounds more like ceng2, and "to hear/listen", 聽 (ting1), sounds more like teng1. As a Cantonese speaker, I love the effort here! However, the above isn't correct. This is an example of vernacular vs. literary pronunciation, and 請 has both pronunciations, depending on context. For instance, 請 is ceng2 when used as the verb "to…

Thanks for that! Yup I'm well aware of the differences between literary and casual (and of course the differences between Standard Chinese and Written Cantonese). My goal for this project is to help preserve and teach the Cantonese language based on my understanding (which is still improving), but more importantly teaching it as a completely independent language because that's what it is. In this instance Standard Ch…

> In this instance Standard Chinese or any sort of literary pronunciation is essentially useless to me since people aren't speaking that way

Thank you for creating this! But I'm afraid this is the misunderstanding -- words like san1 cing2 申請 are very much everyday words, even though the reading of the character is deemed literary. You should think of characters like 請 and 聽 as just having multiple in-context pronunciations, some of which you should learn, some of which you probably don't need to.

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for that! Yup I'm well aware of the differences between literary and casual (and of course the differences between Standard Chinese and Written Cantonese). My goal for this project is to help preserve and teach the Cantonese language based on my understanding (which is still improving), but more importantly teaching it as a completely independent language because that's what it is. In this instance Standard Ch…

> In this instance Standard Chinese or any sort of literary pronunciation is essentially useless to me since people aren't speaking that way Thank you for creating this! But I'm afraid this is the misunderstanding -- words like san1 cing2 申請 are very much everyday words, even though the reading of the character is deemed literary. You should think of characters like 請 and 聽 as just having multiple in-context pronunci…

Definitely. I'm not saying the word 申請 itself isn't used in normal speech, but more that the pronunciation of 請 in normal speech would sound more like an e. So I would rather teach people the normal way people would pronounce words and not the literary form, since as I said before, I also do want to stay away from Standard Chinese as much as possible and teach Written Cantonese. It will take me some time to continue to extract the essence of the language and document it at the core level. Once I've extracted the language it could (and should) be used to create full literary writings in Written Cantonese, and not need to use nor ever learn Standard Chinese. If my target audience is to speak to Cantonese people specifically and not every single person of any Chinese language in existence, then writing in Written Cantonese is enough for my purposes and goals.

I definitely appreciate the feedback :). Thank you!

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hop on OpenAI voice mode and start speaking. I do this for Mandarin and Spanish, it even speaks my native Afrikaans! Valuable and only $20 a month. Also, it's great because it can speak about anything, which I find refreshing rather than having domain specific resources.

I've found it often answers a Cantonese question in Mandarin. I'm not sure if that's because it converts to written Chinese, then answers the text, then reads it in Mandarin. But sometimes if you use a Cantonese specific word like 乜野 it'll be (presumably) converted to written Cantonese and then will answer in Cantonese.

What model are you using? I'm using ChatGPT 4o (paid) in Advanced Voice Mode and it's speaking to me in perfect Cantonese.

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#37
I'm thinking of improving my Cantonese by reading a 金庸 novel like 倚天屠龍記. Hoping to find an online resource similar to this website that has the traditional Chinese characters, Jyutping romanisation and translation all aligned, along with the spoken audio as well.

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#39

Pretty cool! I've been living in HK for 7 years now and not moved past the basic few phrases - mostly because English gets you so far there's no "forcing factor" (vs. in Tokyo you'd be kinda forced to learn Japanese). One suggestion, though it would be quite high effort: have you considered also adding a button or something for the pronunciation? I think the hardest part for learners is knowing their reading of the j…

Good question. I have actually and was recently playing around with that. The problem isn't necessarily the recordings (since I've accepted that I'm willing to record all the possible Cantonese sounds for all the words myself - I'm not a fan of AI and I don't use it in my personal life if I can avoid it), but more because of the nature of the project. I haven't figured out a way to be able to get the base directory o…

You couldn't just have an 'audio' folder next to 'dungeons'?

Re: The Cantonese Scrolls – A Cantonese language learning mental RPG

#40
post #27

Right off the bat, 小念頭, siu2 lim6 tau4 seems to be incorrectly romanized. 念 should be nim6, not lim6. lim6 is what we call 懶音 (literally "lazy pronunciation"). The statement that "Cantonese has no formal standardization for its phonetic and writing systems" deserves a better explanation. There are in fact multiple standards, as can be seen on the website of the Multi-function Chinese Character Database developed by t…

I'm aware of this and I've made a conscious decision to use the lazy pronunciation. I'm actually thinking of switching to lazy pronunciation as the standard pronunciation for a lot of words, the same as what some authors have done. It's more difficult and weird to teach people a pronunciation that not many people are using. At this point the lazy pronunciation has pretty much dominated the normal language development…

I agree 100% to use the lazy pronunciation. I'm a native speaker, and I don't think I've ever heard the formal except when talking to others who are trying to learn Cantonese.
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