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Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

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Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#191
post #10

I have been wondering about this in the context of being ready for work in the age of LLM‘s. What nobody can deny is that they memorize information at a superhuman level, so it might reduce the value of having done that myself. On the other hand, “couldn’t you just google that“has been an erroneous retort to the value of space repetition for decades, during which I’ve gotten a lot of value out of doing. has been a er…

A software-based spaced repetition system probably could have made someone appear borderline superhuman in the era before Google. Google cleared a lot of this low-hanging fruit, and then it became "merely" the best way to cram facts into your noggin so you can become an expert at whatever you want, which is still extremely valuable. Your doctor probably used SRS to get through medical school, and now look at how much…

> it became "merely" the best way to cram facts into your noggin so you can become an expert at whatever you want

Counterpoint: a noggin full of facts does not an expert make. Makes a good cocktail party trick, or Jeopardy champion. Expert in a subject? Definitely not.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what is more effective than spaced repitition? Reading, listening, and doing to the thing you are interested in. Anki gives you fact that are disjointed from what you need. using the skill forces a study of what is important not facts that are of no use. i'm not saying spaced repititon is useless - it is a great beginners tool. However you need to move on as soon as possible. once you can use the skill that…

I agree with you for language learners. I built and ran the academic side of a language school for four years, worked on two language learning startups and also learned two languages in different language families from my native language (and from each other) to a pretty fluent level. In all those years I’ve never met a single really successful learner who made SRS a major part of their studies, though some used it a…

> In all those years I’ve never met a single really successful learner who made SRS a major part of their studies

I did, but very differently from how most people do it.

Premade decks with single words sucks, yes. But creating your own flashcards with lots of audio and mined sentences from your learning materials accelerates learning better than anything I tried before.

And yes, it requires a lot of immersion / exposure and other things. But when done properly it works really really well.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#193
post #24

FSRS is a really clever iteration on Anki's SM2 algorithm. I've been playing around with various spaced repetition implementations lately - there's a great collection of open source libraries at github.com/open-spaced-repetition. I ended up using their typescript bindings for a vocabulary builder I'm working on (deft.so) and it's been surprisingly straightforward to implement.

I found FSRS is not great for languages because it optimized for the wrong thing, ie. how likely you will recall a word after X days without encountering that word.

There are 2 big problems:

1. If you are studying seriously, you will encounter many words outside your SRS practice, so the FSRS prediction fails flat.

2. More importantly, language learning is not about recalling words.

The algorithm I use for my app has a different set of objectives, it's I'll open source it soon

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you for language learners. I built and ran the academic side of a language school for four years, worked on two language learning startups and also learned two languages in different language families from my native language (and from each other) to a pretty fluent level. In all those years I’ve never met a single really successful learner who made SRS a major part of their studies, though some used it a…

> In all those years I’ve never met a single really successful learner who made SRS a major part of their studies I did, but very differently from how most people do it. Premade decks with single words sucks, yes. But creating your own flashcards with lots of audio and mined sentences from your learning materials accelerates learning better than anything I tried before. And yes, it requires a lot of immersion / expos…

Have you ever gotten to a C1 level in a language you learned as an adult that isn't close to your native language? If so, what kind of effort did it take you?

Or if you only learned closely related languages, what aspect of it was "really successful"? Accent? Writing ability? Something else?

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#195
post #20
post #4

This is putting the cart before the horse. No matter how you slice and dice your equations, everyone intuitively understands you can't really store infinite data in your brain. Trying to claim otherwise is simply academic sophistry. No matter how hard you write your proof, it won't make information theory, basic physics, etc go away.

This is a math exercise, it assumes an infinitely long lived person, as well as a lot of simplifications. That's the same kind of arguments that can make sailboats go infinitely fast as long as there is any kind of wind. It is not useless. It tells you essentially two things. First, it shows the limits of your model. If you have proven that sailboats can go infinitely fast, which is obviously not the case in reality,…

It's not a math exercise. The author poses a question that is in the realm of psychology or neuropsychology or something like that, and then jumps straight into solving it with pure math, picking premises out from thin air.

The premises are obviously wrong, like assuming an infinitely long lived person, which means the answers arrived at will have no correlation with anything factual. You can't fix that with any sort of refinement. To be refinable would require it to be coarsely correct to begin with.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#196
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think that "working hard" bit works and produces results? Repetition! If you're learning a language and trying to learn vocabulary, a new alphabet, etc, anything that involves lots of recall being necessary, spaced repetition is an excellent aid because without the basic shit you can't do any of the rest. Plus it's supposed to be consistent over a (very long) time, not a "quick fix" so it's actually really…

Memory is associative. So if you study a topic from different approaches or read other tangential material, that has connections to the topic, you remember it a lot better, thanks to associations. Repetition techniques simply ignore associations. Learning new vocabulary works up until 200-300 words, then it's useless.

It's not all or nothing, you can combine approaches :)

And if you're learning an alphabet where before you know 1000-2000 unique characters, you can't reasonably read anything, it's still very useful!

Plus who says that repetition techniques can't include context (like sentences for instance?), Bunpro being a pretty good example of this for learning Japanese grammar

Obviously don't just use SRS all day, consume media, read books, etc.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#197

Anyone had any experience using spaced repetition for reinforcing math learning?

Checkout mathacademy.com Not affiliated but 3 months in and I feel my math foundations are finally solidifying into something that will allow me to build into areas previously out of reach

I'm also using it lol.

But I'm at about 70% of Foundations III and 15% of Stats and Probability and the amount of formulas is starting to be overwhelming.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In all those years I’ve never met a single really successful learner who made SRS a major part of their studies I did, but very differently from how most people do it. Premade decks with single words sucks, yes. But creating your own flashcards with lots of audio and mined sentences from your learning materials accelerates learning better than anything I tried before. And yes, it requires a lot of immersion / expos…

Have you ever gotten to a C1 level in a language you learned as an adult that isn't close to your native language? If so, what kind of effort did it take you? Or if you only learned closely related languages, what aspect of it was "really successful"? Accent? Writing ability? Something else?

For me fluency is lower than C1, but yes.

It is a lot effort, I find Spaced Repetition actually very demanding – but effective, that's the point.

If you take Paul Nation's math (the famous https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1044345.pdf) and instead of doing that you mine the hardest sentences you find to an SRS (basically, separating grain from chaff) you save yourself a lot of time, because you will never find a piece of text long enough where you know exactly 98% of the words.

In my case, I use flashcards primarily for reading and listening comprehension, but lately I am using it a bit more for pronunciation, and it can also work well for spelling.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#199
post #87

I've done the whole spaced repetition and Anki thing, realized that if it's boring, you won't learn as well, and you won't stick with it in the long term, once you miss a week and suddenly you have 863 reps to get through to catch up. Instead, read stuff you're interested, apply it in your work, learn mostly Just In Time for when you need it. Learn by doing.

Spaced repetition is the cherry on the cake: learn by practicing, but create your own cards along the way, and when reviewing just focus on making a recall effort, not nailing everything. For language, 10-20 mins / day is great, and if you are putting enough effort, 6-8 reps is enough to learn a card with 2 new concepts at ~15secs / rep, which really makes a difference long term. I made a tool[1] with that approach i…

This looks very interesting. The language dialect that I am learning now has no online sources, but many words are similar to other dialects that are online. How does the app find the native pronunciations of words? What can we do with the voice notes, other than just listening to them? Transcription?

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever gotten to a C1 level in a language you learned as an adult that isn't close to your native language? If so, what kind of effort did it take you? Or if you only learned closely related languages, what aspect of it was "really successful"? Accent? Writing ability? Something else?

For me fluency is lower than C1, but yes. It is a lot effort, I find Spaced Repetition actually very demanding – but effective, that's the point. If you take Paul Nation's math (the famous https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1044345.pdf ) and instead of doing that you mine the hardest sentences you find to an SRS (basically, separating grain from chaff) you save yourself a lot of time, because you will never find a…

Some repetition is good and children in fact often repeatedly read their favorite book or watch their favorite show. However, a key thing to keep in mind with Paul Nation's study is that "repetitions" of a word represented encountering it in different contexts.

This is important for three reasons. First is polysemy, which he mentioned. This is words with multiple meanings like fair (reasonable/just / light or unblemished / a type of public event with entertainment and vendors).

The second and in my opinion even larger issue is gaining and understanding of how the words are used and their scope. E.g., there's no word in Chinese that quite matches "nose" in English. The closest is 鼻子, but that can refer to an elephant trunk or a pig's snout, which "nose" can't. In some languages, there's a word that can be used for humans and pigs, but not elephants. In others, the same word also encompasses bird's beaks. The only way you'll learn this is from encountering the word in a lot of different contexts, not from drilling it repeatedly in the same context. Furthermore, there are a lot of words that tend to be used with or near each other but near others (collocations). In English, it's normal to say you're doing "pretty good" or "absolutely fantastic", but saying you're doing "absolutely good" would be very strange.

Finally, there are a lot of shared cultural stories each language community has. In English, these would be from Christianity, from classical Greco-Roman figures like Aesop, from German storytellers like the Brothers Grimm, other European storytellers like Hans Christian Anderson, etc. In Chinese (or Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese or other nearby countries) people are going to have a lot of shared stories from ancient China—philosophers from the Spring and Autumn era, historical stories and dramatizations of the interesting times in history such as the Three Kingdoms era, and many, many folk tales. If you don't understand at least the core of the cultural cannon, you'll regularly be confused by things in TV shows like soap operas or variety shows, even if you understand every word in transcript. Reading fiction will be even harder.

The more distant the language is from the one you speak natively, the more the second and especially third points will impact you unless you take in an enormous amount of input.

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