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Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

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Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#41

Post by s1artibartfast »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #16

The Peripheral The biggest problem for me, is after the catastrophe, and collapse of everything, the survivors have "won the lottery". But the book never really explains how this future turned out 'good' for the survivors and not a 'mad max' like dystopia like every other post apocalypse story. If there was massive population decline, then how are they making all that technology? Is it all robots? Who built the robot…

I think that you can make a pretty good case that global scale isnt necessary for modern quality of life, and the world would be more efficient with 10 or 1% of the current population. Innovation would suffer, but 80 million is sufficient for a diversified modern economy.

Natural resources are still the primary constraint on human prosperity: food, energy, land, metals, ect. In a depopulated world, the average persons labor is the same, but they are working with only the best inputs. You might have the same number of fishermen per capita, but they are fishing the best 1% of fishing grounds without competition. If you drill for oil, it is now in the top 1% in terms of ease of extraction. If you build a dam for power, you have more site capacity per capita. If China had 1% the population, the three gorges dam would supply enough power for entire country two times over.

People learn about economies of scale and high school econ, but there are also ineconomies of scale. At some point there is no more efficiency and gain from increasing the size of your widget factory. However, it might be more expensive to import power and metal from further and further away

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#42

Post by TeMPOraL »

torginus wrote: post #7
Palomides wrote: post #6

there are still subcultures: the ones unpalatable to corporate interests; ones around topics that are illegal, very politically fringe, or centered on weird sex stuff

I would also add things that are unprofitable and/or participating in them requires a high degree of personal investment which can't be substituted with money. Which describes a lot of things if you think about it.

Those get commercialized quickly, too.

You'd think that e.g. dumpster-diving for food would be "unprofitable" and require "high degree of personal investment which can't be substituted with money", but freeganism already turned into aspirational hobby for many, and has its own little ecosystem of influencers selling books. It fits in nicely among its even more commercial cousins, like "minimalism", "healthy eating", "organic food", "zero waste", "frugal lifestyle", etc.; together, they form a larger "anti-consumerist"/"degrowth" market segment, which is happily growing as more people buy merch.

The irony. But as the old adage goes, the market can merchandise everything; it'll happily sell you a hi-vis vest, baclava, baseball bat and a chain you can use to cuff yourself to an utility pole as you camp in front of the supermarket to protest capitalism ruining the world.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#43

Post by hluska »

grey-area wrote: post #4

Reminds me of this from 1986 (The Dead Kennedys), talking about the co-option of the Punk counter-culture by the mainstream: Punk's not dead; it just deserves to die.

If anyone is interested, that song is called Chickenshit Conformist. It’s on Bedtime for Democracy.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#44

Post by pc86 »

holsta wrote: post #34
pc86 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does fascism have to do with anything?

Fascists chase ideals / purity, so put a lot of effort into their uniforms, for one. Places like Ordensburg Vogelsang, where they trained Nazi officers, explains how they cut themselves to look experienced in battle, among other things. The Wikipedia page doesn't do the place justice. It's terrifying to visit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordensburg_Vogelsang Fascists have strong opinions on "correct" art: https://e…

What does any of that have to do with the article?

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#45

Post by MacsHeadroom »

detourdog wrote: post #8

Dumpster diving is one of those sub-cultures that is hard to commodify. One of my kids prefers the ethics of dumpster diving. What a privilege.

I just tested an app that let's you pay $3.99 to get a bag of food about to go in the dumpster: https://www.toogoodtogo.com/

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#47

Post by bakuninsbart »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #21
torginus wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also add things that are unprofitable and/or participating in them requires a high degree of personal investment which can't be substituted with money. Which describes a lot of things if you think about it.

Curious what subcultures comes to mind for you. I havent finished my coffee, but and drawing a blank on cultural interests that cant be commodified.

Funny that no one yet mentioned the elephant in the room given that this is HN: Hacker and FOSS culture. Of course there are attempts to commercialize it, but people are naturally resistant.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#48

Post by boerseth »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #21
torginus wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also add things that are unprofitable and/or participating in them requires a high degree of personal investment which can't be substituted with money. Which describes a lot of things if you think about it.

Curious what subcultures comes to mind for you. I havent finished my coffee, but and drawing a blank on cultural interests that cant be commodified.

Dancing is a good example, though not perfect. It's hard to convince a club to have a salsa/bachata/tango/swing centered evening, because the interested crowd actually comes to dance and socialize. It is much more profitable and easy to turn down the lights and up the music and get customers that buy alcohol.

Not to say that dancing is not commodifiable. People make a living offering classes, outfits, shoes, and travels centered on specific dance genres. But as a participant, you can get pretty far for a lot less money than the price of the proverbial night on the town.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#49

Post by namaria »

BarryMilo wrote: post #20

I am a sci-fi nerd and I also found Neuromancer incredibly boring, but that's probably because it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine. I'm not a fan if present-ish day sci-fi though, reality is depressing enough as it is.

I like sci-fi but I tend to only like classics. I found Neuromancer so incredibly interesting because it seems to be at the root of so much contemporary "cyberpunk" stuff.

I often say that genres are what happens when mediocre artists latch on to something fresh someone created, and to me it's only worth spending time with the originators. Though I understand lots of people like that something that engrossed them can be sought further in a genre.

And that's pretty much how I felt about reading Neuromancer. I like cyberpunk so I want the real thing, not the emulation. Neuromancer and Ghost in the Shell are so much better than Matrix. And I love the Matrix.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#50

Post by namaria »

protonbob wrote: post #25
moomin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U2 literally employ a stylist who buys their clothes from second hand clothes markets. An incredibly expensive way of supporting a “no consumption” aesthetic.

They are still consuming less natural resources and someone is sharing in their wealth. I don't see the problem here.

Any demand pull will ultimately increase consumption of resources at the end. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. The only thing that works is consuming less. Pretending like there is a way to do it only opens up avenues for guilty-free consuming.
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