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Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

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Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being way too vague. What is setting your expectations of "slowly"? What rate would you expect children to learn language at? Even if that were to be the case, your argument is essentially a god of the gaps argument. Not P therefor Q is not sound reasoning. The whole notion of the Universal Grammar and innate language faculties which instantiate subsets of the Universal Grammar is weird.

No, he's right, check out Pinkers the language instinct for the full treatment on the issue. Children learn at a rate impossible from just what they hear and imitate. We are pre-wired for language.

30,000+ hours using more computing power than the fastest computer on the planet to get the a 3 year olds grasp of language is hardly 'fast'.

PS: Language acquisition starts before birth, and continues 24/7 after that until we 'learn' it.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#42
post #24

This is one of those rare moments in intellectual life where being in the room and now seeing the debate develop, it becomes clear that the resulting hype isn't (wasn't) loud enough. This distinction marks the real turning point in AI from abstract, grand claims with highly restrictive evidence toward engineering that simply works. Who cares about the ontology when we can recreate? It's like saying airplanes don't pr…

I don't think I would take that strident battle-against-dinosaurs view, in part because I think intellectually understanding things is useful in and of itself, not some kind of "just build it and shut up" anti-intellectual view; and also because I don't think it's an accurate summary of the history of AI. There's no particular reason we can't both build and study things in various ways, and the history of AI has been…

I often feel bad for computer science researchers in the 50s and 60s. It isn't that they were any less smart than today, it's just that where they had kilo-X, we have giga-X, if not tera-X or even peta-X.

One of my evolutionary computation professors said that he had a deck of cards that he carried from job to job, university to university, running bits of his evolutionary computation experiment on spare cycles, an experiment that runs in fractions of a second on hardware at the time he told the story in 2001. Presumably now it would run in even more fractional fractions of a second.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#43
OK, let me start with two facts, one objective, one personal: (i) Noam Chomsky is a genius with many contributions to linguistics and computer science (ii) I think his overall influence had been damaging to linguistics.

Here's a summary of Chomsky's career in layman's terms: As everyone knows, Chomsky first came to prominence with his critique of Skinner (who, as everyone also knows, was a total psycho). He pretty much created linguistics as we know it (at least in the US, there were some numbskulls in Europe who still doubted the new order), starting from the main thesis of linguistic universals, which can be summarized as the fact that all humans possess the same language faculty, i.e. the wide range of linguistics differences between, say, English and Mandarin are just on the surface. This was a welcome relief against the Sapir-Whorf mumbo-jumbo which held that Eskimos had hundreds of words of snow and language constrained how we think. Chomsky has also been very active in politics (he's actually much better known to the general world by his political books), pointing out the evils especially of the American brand of capitalism (is there any other kind?) and its corrosive influence on the world, e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. He also points out errors in certain approaches in Economics, e.g. see http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky#Capitalism, without holding a degree in the field, but everybody does that.

Chomsky's greatly damaging influence to linguistics is due to the fact that his speculative and simplistic (at least originally) views on how the brain processes and learns language has stifled research in promising fields by decades. The main problem I have with him is that the cause of the shortcomings of his theory seems to be not lack of knowledge (very little was known about cognition in the 60s), which, of course handicaps all pioneers of science, but politics (I detest politically motivated scientific theories). AFAIK, his universalist views were motivated from his political beliefs.

Luckily, starting in the 90s, Chomsky's chokehold on linguistics has slipped somehow. Researchers, such as Leda Cosmides, have ventured into research on linguistic relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity). Skinner's theories are making a comeback in academic circles (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/06/the-perf...).

So, what does all this mean for the current debate? I think it's time to retire and the "old guard"! Let us acknowledge their breakthroughs, their contributions, but also their limitations and move on.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#44
post #2

They have two different definitions of "artificial intelligence," which is where the schism seems to be arising from. Chomsky takes the academic approach - artificial intelligence is the simulation of humanlike (or even possibly mammalian) intelligence. Norvig is taking the engineering approach - artificial intelligence needs only to pass the Turing test. They're both right, both approaches have value, and they both…

I personally believe that it will be possible to simulate a working brain in sufficient detail that it is able to "think" like a human does before humans understand said brain.

In fact I doubt that the cognitive capacity of a human brain is enough to truly understand an operating human brain.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#45
It's a question about engineering vs science. Before Kepler, people actually could predict the motion of the stars and planets through the sky; perhaps not as elegantly or accurately as after Kepler, but to a certain degree, so what?

The AI case is clearly a point where the theories from linguistics are insufficient for engineering purposes. Watson could not have been built today based off of Chomskian linguistics. Maybe the statistical models will advance the theory of linguistics, maybe not. Either way they will give us useful tools now which is better than elegant tools later.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's right, check out Pinkers the language instinct for the full treatment on the issue. Children learn at a rate impossible from just what they hear and imitate. We are pre-wired for language.

30,000+ hours using more computing power than the fastest computer on the planet to get the a 3 year olds grasp of language is hardly 'fast'. PS: Language acquisition starts before birth, and continues 24/7 after that until we 'learn' it.

"Pinker explains that a universal grammar represents specific structures in the human brain that recognize the general rules of other humans' speech, such as whether the local language places adjectives before or after nouns, and begin a specialized and very rapid learning process not explainable as reasoning from first principles or pure logic. This learning machinery exists only during a specific critical period of childhood and is then disassembled for thrift, freeing resources in an energy-hungry brain."

Having read the book, his arguments are far more convincing than your assertions.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30,000+ hours using more computing power than the fastest computer on the planet to get the a 3 year olds grasp of language is hardly 'fast'. PS: Language acquisition starts before birth, and continues 24/7 after that until we 'learn' it.

"Pinker explains that a universal grammar represents specific structures in the human brain that recognize the general rules of other humans' speech, such as whether the local language places adjectives before or after nouns, and begin a specialized and very rapid learning process not explainable as reasoning from first principles or pure logic. This learning machinery exists only during a specific critical period of…

However, unlike his arguments I limited myself to using actual facts.

If you just want a compelling argument: Biology is a vary important component in the creation and evolution of language, because the fine motor control required to say "linguistic" vs "mommy" or "stop" has a lot to do with how languages are learned and evolve. As baby's practice how to say thing babble converts to simple words but in doing so there are pattern as to which sounds are easier to produce and therefore enable them to probe their environment by reproducing. This paralls the evolution of language where the most important and simplist ideas where the first to be communicated and therefore take up the 'root' address space in the language with more complex words and ideas like 'chemist' being tacked on over time.

PS: Sure, it sounds great. But how many assumptions am I stringing together in just those few sentences.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#48

Isn't this basically an argument over John Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment? It supposes that there is a program that gives a computer the ability to carry on an intelligent conversation in written Chinese. If the program is given to someone who speaks only English to execute the instructions of the program by hand, then in theory, the English speaker would also be able to carry on a conversation in written C…

Is a robot capable of running? Let's say you had one, then take his legs and give them to an amputee. The amputee can operate the legs by pressing a button. However, pressing a button is not running. Similarly, the robot would not really be running either.

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#49
post #24

This is one of those rare moments in intellectual life where being in the room and now seeing the debate develop, it becomes clear that the resulting hype isn't (wasn't) loud enough. This distinction marks the real turning point in AI from abstract, grand claims with highly restrictive evidence toward engineering that simply works. Who cares about the ontology when we can recreate? It's like saying airplanes don't pr…

"Who cares about the ontology when we can recreate? It's like saying airplanes don't properly explain flight because they don't replicate how birds do it. Who cares?"

Well, I do. Being able to understand something from first principle is very different than being able to model it and gain an approximation of it.

One might point out that this debate crops up in a different form in developer circles, but reframed as "Learn assembly & cs theory vs. use IDE & ignore assembly and theory".

Re: Norvig vs. Chomsky and the Fight for the Future of AI

#50

I spent about ten years working on Markov based chat programs. I gave up on themwhen I realized that no matter how sophisticated your statistical model it will never be more than a statistical analysis of text, unless it includes some rich rule based model of mental processes and mental objects. It may be that such a model of mental processes must itself be fuzzy and probabilistic, but it must exist. Therefore I come…

The fact that Markov chains are by definition memoryless isn't an argument in favor Chomsky or magical thinking. Sure, if you want to improve your output you can use (n+1)grams instead of n-grams, but the curse of dimensionality is going to quickly catch up with you. Language smoothing will help for a little while. Over a long enough horizon all Markov chain output is jibberish. None of these obvious limitations are an argument against statistical models.

Where is the data that statistical methods don't 'advance our understanding'? What does an EEG tell us about the brain works?

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