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Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

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Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#81

Post by colin_jack »

purplethinking wrote: post #75
runarberg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the mistake here is simply to many new cards a day. If you miss a week and have 863 reps, you definitely are going way too fast. You shouldn’t have to spend more than 5-20 minutes daily going over your review, and if you miss a week you shouldn’t need more than two or three half hour sessions to catch up. I think there are diminishing returns as well by having to many daily new cards, as there is only so much…

I used it for language learning and CS among other things. The thing is, life gets busy. Suddenly you have a kid or two. Spaced Repetition falls into the same category of things that people in their 20s do because they have too much time, like using intricate note taking systems, journaling, training for triathlons and being really into artisanal coffee.

I haven't found that at all. I'm well past my twenties but find Anki is one of the things I can fit in, mainly because even with kids and responsibilities you can often find small periods (say 15 mins) of time through the day. It's not enough time to sit down and start into something really complex, especially as the time is sometimes interrupted, but it is enough time to try a few questions.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#82

Post by keiferski »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #77
keiferski wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because realistically doing your Anki cards should take 10-30 minutes a day, maximum. If you can’t slog through 30 minutes of learning vocabulary/etc. then the thing you’re learning isn’t very important to you. SRS isn’t about doing flash cards for hours on end, it’s about determining the maximum retention rate while doing the minimum amount of work. Even then, personally I don’t find Anki that boring at all. But I m…

> If you can’t slog through 30 minutes of learning vocabulary/etc. then the thing you’re learning isn’t very important to you This obviously isn't the case if there's an alternative approach that does work for you. > Even then, personally I don’t find Anki that boring at all. Right, and you're having trouble picturing how something you get for free (or take for granted) has a cost for others. Isn't it obvious? Runnin…

I think you are dramatically undervaluing how effective SRS is. 30 minutes of doing flashcards with Anki will accomplish about 500% as many other learning activities in the same time, in my experience.

So the point is that while SRS might be boring at times compared to other types of learning, the benefits are worth it. Effectiveness of learning does not correlate directly with enjoyment.

To phrase this another way: yes, in general you should find learning methods that appeal to you. But spaced repetition is so effective that it’s worth implementing, even if you don’t enjoy it.

Edit: using the metaphor that you added: if say, doing jumping jacks for 10 minutes burned 10x calories than every other exercise does in 60 minutes, and your goal is to lose weight, then yeah, it would seem a little silly to me to avoid doing jumping jacks because you don’t enjoy them. The benefits are worth the hassle.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#83

Post by golly_ned »

OskarS wrote: post #35

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but: of all the really brilliant people I've ever met, interacted with or learned from, I haven't heard of anyone that used techniques like this. Like, the way they learn things and become brilliant is the exact same way every brilliant person has done it for thousands of years: they read books, they discuss and debate with other brilliant people, they study their subjects and…

For those of us who aren’t brilliant, but want to learn well anyway, Anki’s (my preferred SRS) is a godsend when used in the right domains — foreign language vocabulary is the best example.

I don’t see spaced repetition as one of those get-fit-fast schemes. I see it as going to the gym as opposed to generally living an active lifestyle. Some gifted people can get very, very fit without going to the gym, just by playing sports and other physical activities. Gym isn’t that fun compared to playing soccer, and it takes a lot of time and consistency to be worth it.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#84

Post by colin_jack »

wcfrobert wrote: post #64
OskarS wrote: post #35

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but: of all the really brilliant people I've ever met, interacted with or learned from, I haven't heard of anyone that used techniques like this. Like, the way they learn things and become brilliant is the exact same way every brilliant person has done it for thousands of years: they read books, they discuss and debate with other brilliant people, they study their subjects and…

I mostly agree with you, I don't do SR myself, but I do think the benefit of spaced repetition is solid for medical students/researchers and language learners. Also some people just find it fun to go through their Anki deck instead of doomscrolling while on the subway or waiting in line. Whether there's any real benefit for that person is debatable. It's “fun“ in the same way going to the gym, or drinking kale smooth…

> Also some people just find it fun to go through their Anki deck instead of doomscrolling while on the subway or waiting in line. Whether there's any real benefit for that person is debatable. It's “fun“ in the same way going to the gym, or drinking kale smoothie is fun.

I'm probably one of those people, but commuting is one of those examples where you have a small (hopefully) amount of relatively low value time, time that is somewhat interrupted. What else of value would you do in it? Maybe listen to a podcast, catch up on blogs. All fine, reasonable choices, but doing a bit of Anki is a reasonable alternative.

Only time I feel like I've wasted those periods is when I end up wasting it (just scrolling through social media or random videos). Anything else is I think a reasonable choice.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#85

Post by purplethinking »

runarberg wrote: post #80
purplethinking wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used it for language learning and CS among other things. The thing is, life gets busy. Suddenly you have a kid or two. Spaced Repetition falls into the same category of things that people in their 20s do because they have too much time, like using intricate note taking systems, journaling, training for triathlons and being really into artisanal coffee.

I guess it just boils down to what you want to do with your spare time. You find time for HN. Me, I can find time for 20-60 min a day studying Japanese (of which 5-20 is in Anki). I also find time for 20-60 min a day playing go so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Fine, time AND energy. HN is entertainment. SR feels like work. When I have an hour at night on average to yourself, I don't want to spend it studying. I've tried taking breaks at work to do it, but you need those mini breaks at work to be a bit unproductive as well. I can't be "ON" 100% of the time, I need rest.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#86

Post by runarberg »

L_i_m_n wrote: post #24

FSRS is a really clever iteration on Anki's SM2 algorithm. I've been playing around with various spaced repetition implementations lately - there's a great collection of open source libraries at github.com/open-spaced-repetition. I ended up using their typescript bindings for a vocabulary builder I'm working on (deft.so) and it's been surprisingly straightforward to implement.

I used the same binding for a kanji learning app (https://shodoku.app).

I had some problems with their documentation though. Following their examples was pretty straightforward, but I always had trouble e.g. what is the difference between State.Learning and State.Relearning, or what does fuzzy mean in FSRS parameters, or reps on a Card. You have to either read the algorithm explainer or the Anki source code to understand that.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#87

Post by jamager »

purplethinking wrote: post #54

I've done the whole spaced repetition and Anki thing, realized that if it's boring, you won't learn as well, and you won't stick with it in the long term, once you miss a week and suddenly you have 863 reps to get through to catch up. Instead, read stuff you're interested, apply it in your work, learn mostly Just In Time for when you need it. Learn by doing.

Spaced repetition is the cherry on the cake: learn by practicing, but create your own cards along the way, and when reviewing just focus on making a recall effort, not nailing everything.

For language, 10-20 mins / day is great, and if you are putting enough effort, 6-8 reps is enough to learn a card with 2 new concepts at ~15secs / rep, which really makes a difference long term.

I made a tool[1] with that approach in mind and tailor-made for language acquisition patterns. The key part is that creating cards (audio included) must be super-easy and fast, but they need to come from you nevertheless.

[1] https://thehardway.app

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#88

Post by mirrorlake »

OskarS wrote: post #35

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but: of all the really brilliant people I've ever met, interacted with or learned from, I haven't heard of anyone that used techniques like this. Like, the way they learn things and become brilliant is the exact same way every brilliant person has done it for thousands of years: they read books, they discuss and debate with other brilliant people, they study their subjects and…

"There are no shortcuts, you have to put in the work." Spoken like someone who doesn't use an SRS system, then. They're actually extremely hard to use, because the focus is on feeding you the toughest possible version of every recalled card. Part of why people quit using them is because it's mentally exhausting!

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#89

Post by Alex-Programs »

golly_ned wrote: post #83
OskarS wrote: post #35

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but: of all the really brilliant people I've ever met, interacted with or learned from, I haven't heard of anyone that used techniques like this. Like, the way they learn things and become brilliant is the exact same way every brilliant person has done it for thousands of years: they read books, they discuss and debate with other brilliant people, they study their subjects and…

For those of us who aren’t brilliant, but want to learn well anyway, Anki’s (my preferred SRS) is a godsend when used in the right domains — foreign language vocabulary is the best example. I don’t see spaced repetition as one of those get-fit-fast schemes. I see it as going to the gym as opposed to generally living an active lifestyle. Some gifted people can get very, very fit without going to the gym, just by playi…

That's an excellent way to put it. Personally, it allowed me to get excellent grades despite my post-concussion syndrome. It's miserable, but optimising your learning can really let you punch above your weight.

Also, you can fit Anki into parts of your day where "proper" learning is more difficult. I used to do it on the bus to and from school, where it was far to loud - and I was often too tired - to learn through other means.

The alternative was scrolling through HN... I did that a lot, too.

Re: Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall (2022)

#90

Post by Gud »

keiferski wrote: post #82
hombre_fatal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can’t slog through 30 minutes of learning vocabulary/etc. then the thing you’re learning isn’t very important to you This obviously isn't the case if there's an alternative approach that does work for you. > Even then, personally I don’t find Anki that boring at all. Right, and you're having trouble picturing how something you get for free (or take for granted) has a cost for others. Isn't it obvious? Runnin…

I think you are dramatically undervaluing how effective SRS is. 30 minutes of doing flashcards with Anki will accomplish about 500% as many other learning activities in the same time, in my experience. So the point is that while SRS might be boring at times compared to other types of learning, the benefits are worth it. Effectiveness of learning does not correlate directly with enjoyment. To phrase this another way:…

The key modifier here being "in your experience". Perhaps for others, other methods are more effective.
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