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A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

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21–30 of 181 posts

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#21
post #19

As an engineer and an ex-libertarian that managed to (thankfully) outgrow it, I have to say that what you describe isn't actually libertarianism as practised and understood by libertarians at large, but your own personal interpretation of it. Is is actually somewhat close to my current views and I would never call myself a libertarian, nor would libertarians call me one of them. You seem to believe in a weak central…

Your discussion of health care systems is simplistic. For example, the US system has a track record of innovation and there are very good reasons that some non-US populations have higher average health that are completely unrelated to health care. While I'm not a libertarian, libertarians don't encourage small government just to hear themselves speak. If one doesn't err on the side of limiting government, you tend to…

> Your discussion of health care systems is simplistic.

People have written books on the subject. Any internet discussion of it is bound to be "simplistic" to some degree.

Really, though, wheels sums it up best:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=419503

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#22
Libertarianism is about the most basic pragmatic view of life. There simply isn't enough variance in human intelligence for a few people at the top to be able to make effective decisions for everyone else. Libertarians believe in three basic rights - life, liberty, and property. All government should do only/everything necessary to preserve those rights. It follows then, that Libertarians are strongly against regulation unless it is absolutely necessary (as this leads to corruption, monopolies, etc).

From the perspective of environmental issues, the government is not doing ENOUGH to protect people from corporations that violently destroy citizen's rights to life and property. The corporations do not own the air in the sky, they don't have a right to pollute the river you drink from, and they certainly don't have a right to cause you to be diseased by Mercury poisoning.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#23
One way to understand the difference between the typical Democrat/Republicanism mainstream majority and libertarianism and is to consider at what level each analyzes government action. The typical politician asks if a law encourages people to do the "right" thing. The libertarian asks what special reasons exists to use government force and if there are special reasons, what is the least intrusive way to accomplish the goal.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#24

As an engineer and an ex-libertarian that managed to (thankfully) outgrow it, I have to say that what you describe isn't actually libertarianism as practised and understood by libertarians at large, but your own personal interpretation of it. Is is actually somewhat close to my current views and I would never call myself a libertarian, nor would libertarians call me one of them. You seem to believe in a weak central…

European health care systems are a double edged sword for startup founders. I have lived in several european countries and researched the matter for some others as well because I like to move around. I'll spare you the details because they are mind boggingly complicated.

The issue is that in most countries there is no separate health care system. There is an integrated social security system, including pensions, etc. The problem is that there is a minimum charge that you have to pay irrespective of your actual income.

This "standing charge" varies a lot. It's negligible in the UK ($15 per month) and (I believe) in Ireland. But it's awfully high in most of continental europe ($300 per month). That increases the burn rate for self funded startups by about a third.

The reason why it's so high in some countries is that you don't get to choose what kind of risks you want covered. The assumption is that you pay for the older generation so that the next generation pays for you.

It's one size fits all, decoupled from individual choices. You must pay into the retirement system even if you decide (as I have) that you are never going to stop working unless you're unable to (which should be covered by a basic disability insurance which is much cheaper)

As a result, many people (including myself at this moment) have no health coverage at all. Either because they cannot afford it or because the rules are so complicated, inconsistent and inflexible that people with unusual CVs slip through the net.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#25
post #5

So, I lean libertarian on many things. However, the problem I see with libertarianism is that it posits that people aren't that effected by those around them. Gay sex is fine because it's a personal decision - yeah, I totally agree. Taking on billions in risky loans that cause economic collapse is fine because it's a personal decision - I really disagree. I hate the idea of paternalism and as someone involved in the…

Thank you for this.

I think that the field of game theory, and as the most simplistic example, the prisoner's dilemma, shows that libertarianism, as defined by the idea that individuals acting in their own self-interest will create the greatest common benefit, is flawed. Specifically, this will limit the benefit of each individual as well as the aggregate.

Individuals acting in their own self-interests categorically do not arrive at optimal solutions for themselves or for the whole society. It's a complete joke, mathematically provable, and thus ridiculous that it's still being argued. We need coordinators. All forms of government have been imperfect at achieving perfect coordination, which has inspired libertarians and objectivists and etc., but that doesn't invalidate the coordinators' work. Instead, a meaningful endeavor would be to improve the scientific rigor and quality of the policy-based coordination. This is what my research as an undergraduate was based around...

Libertarian, I invite you to go start an investment bank and act in your own unfettered best interest. I'd be hard pressed to see you not end up in a similar situation to investors in any of the past bubbles and collapses.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#26

As an engineer and an ex-libertarian that managed to (thankfully) outgrow it, I have to say that what you describe isn't actually libertarianism as practised and understood by libertarians at large, but your own personal interpretation of it. Is is actually somewhat close to my current views and I would never call myself a libertarian, nor would libertarians call me one of them. You seem to believe in a weak central…

How much time did you spend in Europe to get the idea that the health care systems are good?

Having lived there for 25+ years and now 10+ in the US I can discern no difference. Both systems are broken with a capital F.

I consider myself a libertarian so I would love to see a simple health care option e.g. provides low level emergency care, low level preventative measures.

So you get a busted bone set, colds/infections treated, child birth and pre/post natal, annual check up etc.

But major stuff is not covered e.g. you have a heart attack you're on your own, you need a lifetime of expensive drugs no chance, hip replacement nope.

The idea being that costs are minimized and a clear directive can be written. Like all things you want better treatment you need to put your hand in your pocket.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#27

As an engineer and an ex-libertarian that managed to (thankfully) outgrow it, I have to say that what you describe isn't actually libertarianism as practised and understood by libertarians at large, but your own personal interpretation of it. Is is actually somewhat close to my current views and I would never call myself a libertarian, nor would libertarians call me one of them. You seem to believe in a weak central…

European health care systems are a double edged sword for startup founders. I have lived in several european countries and researched the matter for some others as well because I like to move around. I'll spare you the details because they are mind boggingly complicated. The issue is that in most countries there is no separate health care system. There is an integrated social security system, including pensions, etc.…

> This "standing charge" varies a lot. It's negligible in the UK ($15 per month)

Do you have a reference for the "standing charge" in the UK? I've never heard of it.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#28

Libertarianism is about the most basic pragmatic view of life. There simply isn't enough variance in human intelligence for a few people at the top to be able to make effective decisions for everyone else. Libertarians believe in three basic rights - life, liberty, and property. All government should do only/everything necessary to preserve those rights. It follows then, that Libertarians are strongly against regulat…

On the other hand, there /is/ enough variance in human intelligence (or at least human capability) for huge disparities in wealth even in social democratic societies. How much more pronounced must this difference be in a libertarian society?

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#29
Can somebody who understands Libertarianism help me with the following thought experiment?

Suppose Libland is a libertarian state. The occupants of Libland stay alive by eating Food. Xia is another state. For whatever reason, they don't like Libland, and for whatever reason, they can produce Food much more cheaply than Libland.

Xia starts flooding the Libland market with cheap Food, so that it's is uneconomic for anyone in Libland to produce Food, and the Food industry disappears.

Suddenly Xia cuts of Libland's food supply, and invades several days later. Libland has no means of producing food in short order, and they cannot buy it from anyone else for some reason (for example Xia is the only other state, or it would take too long to open trading routes with other states).

How does Libertarianism cope with this situation?

[edit: please don't treat me as stupid or a troll. I genuinely want to understand libertarianism, and extreme counter-examples are a method of understanding that I find very helpful]

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#30

As an engineer and an ex-libertarian that managed to (thankfully) outgrow it, I have to say that what you describe isn't actually libertarianism as practised and understood by libertarians at large, but your own personal interpretation of it. Is is actually somewhat close to my current views and I would never call myself a libertarian, nor would libertarians call me one of them. You seem to believe in a weak central…

But then why is it that Europeans fly to the US for cutting-edge (no pun intended) surgical methods that aren't available here?

Also minimal government is not the same as weak government. A libertarian government wouldn't do much, but the things it would do (such as operating the courts) it would do with absolute authority. What we have now - in most of the Western world - is large, weak governments.

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