Craigslist Suing Padmapper • Hacker News Board

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#411

Post by jacoblyles » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:15 AM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #2

When you can't beat them, sue them into the ground. Craigslist is one of the poorest user experiences around and succeeds only because people insist on using it. The alternatives somehow manage to be even more spectacularly useless by over-designing their apps and cluttering them up with junk. Padmapper is one of the few that does what they're supposed to do, and it's not even an optimal implementation of this sort o…

>"Craigslist is one of the poorest user experiences around and succeeds only because people insist on using it"

Please use the proper legal word - "Monopoly". I wonder how the Department of Justice decides who to prosecute?

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#412

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:16 AM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #404

learc83 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they can prove that the listing owner asked them to list their property, Craigslist can't sue. Look at the Rightshaven case. The judge ruled that Rightshaven didn't have standing to sue on behalf just because the copyright holder granted it license to. If that theory holds up, Craigslist wouldn't have standing to sue on behalf of the copyright holders. Additionally copyright would only apply if the listings are c…

That is not what the Righthaven court said. Righthaven did not have a copyright, it had a "right to sue" on behalf of the original copyright holder's copyright. The court deemed that insufficient to give Righthaven grounds to enforce the copyright, because Righthaven did not have any copyright or license therein . A right to sue is not considered a "copy right" because it involves no right to copy the material (i.e.,…

The judge in the Righthaven case said this...

"Because the SAA (lawsuit contract) prevents Righthaven from obtaining any of the exclusive rights necessary to maintain standing in a copyright infringement action, the court finds that Righthaven lacks standing in this case,"

Craigslist ToS doesn't grant them exclusive rights, thus by that judge's definition they don't have standing to sue.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#413

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:17 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #387

learc83 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rightshaven (copyright troll) was granted the same right by the copyright holders they represent, yet the judge ruled they didn't have standing to sue on the copyright holder's behalf.

The Righthaven case is slightly different, though I hope the logic still applies. (I'm not a lawyer, but I read the Righthaven opinion[1] when the Padmapper/3Taps workaround was originally discussed.) The difference is that Righthaven was granted merely the right to sue on behalf of the original copyright holder, but none of the exclusive rights that copyrights actually bestow upon their owners. It could be interpret…

The judge in the Righthaven case said this...

"Because the SAA (lawsuit contract) prevents Righthaven from obtaining any of the exclusive rights necessary to maintain standing in a copyright infringement action, the court finds that Righthaven lacks standing in this case,"

Craigslist ToS doesn't grant them exclusive rights, thus by that definition they don't have standing to sue.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#414

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:21 AM UTC

pg wrote: post #393

res0nat0r wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key point is that the TOS says that you grant Craigslist the right to redistribute your listing where ever they see fit, it doesn't say some third party entity has the right to do that.

Yes it does: "fully sub-licensable (through multiple tiers)"

Licensing implies getting CL's authorisation

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#415

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:23 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #379

learc83 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they can prove that the listing owner asked them to list their property, Craigslist can't sue. Look at the Rightshaven case. The judge ruled that Rightshaven didn't have standing to sue on behalf just because the copyright holder granted it license to. If that theory holds up, Craigslist wouldn't have standing to sue on behalf of the copyright holders. Additionally copyright would only apply if the listings are c…

As others have pointed out Craigslist can claim copyright to the collection. The legal theory I would expect them to use is that PadMapper wouldn't know about these listings if they didn't access Craigslist's collection, therefore their use of the collection violated Craigslist's copyright. I did a quick Blekko for the case with the Yellow Pages that was litigated this way (but alas did not find it) where a AT&T sued…

See this http://www.copyright.gov/reports/dbase.html

In Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service Co, a phone directory was ruled to be protected by copyright only if the selection and arrangement of facts was an original creative act (listing numbers alphabetically was not).

I'm aware of a case after Feist where a yellow pages for chinese immigrants was copyrightable because of the creativity involved in selection of the facts and the arrangement into categories. But even then the facts themselves are not copyrightable.

Craigslist's selection is nonexistent, you send it they publish it. And the arrangement of the subset that padmapper is using is solely by geographic location and time. In addition padmapper is not copying the arrangement.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#416

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:28 AM UTC

lobotryas wrote: post #408

learc83 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my answer to mikeryan's post above for information on why that is not necessarily the case. An individual phone number is worthless as well, the collection is valuable. But case law says a phonebook isn't covered by copyright.

I see two problems with your argument: 1) You are comparing physical media to a web service 2) You are confusing content with access to content Since you mentioned Phonebook, let's take yellowpages.com This site has much of the same information that a phonebook does. I would argue that it would be illegal for company B to scrape yellowpages.com for this information in order to make money without express permission fr…

>if Company B found another way to access the same information (ex: scanning physical phonebooks or asking people to sign up to their site) then I'd say they're within the law.

Company B has found another way. They are getting the data from Google's cache of the craigslist.

Padmapper is not touching Craigslist's servers at all.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#417

Post by bascule » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:36 AM UTC

debacle wrote: post #308

warfangle wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You automatically grant and assign to CL, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant and assign to CL, a perpetual, irrevocable, unlimited, fully paid, fully sub-licensable (through multiple tiers), worldwide license to copy, perform, display, distribute, prepare derivative works from (including, without limitation, incorporating into other works) and otherwise use any content that you post. You…

Hadn't actually dug into the ToS, but the bit: > You also expressly grant and assign to CL all rights and causes of action to prohibit and enforce against any unauthorized copying, performance, display, distribution... Seems to be vital to this case.

Then Craigslist should ban Google from indexing their pages

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#418

Post by robotsgz » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:36 AM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #396

robotsgz wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I would call that ingenious. But your point is sorely need of being made more often. How many other websites use arguments like "bandwidth" to falsely portray competitors who access their publicly shared data as somehow in the wrong? Many. Some here on HN. No need to name names. No doubt even Google would complain about people "scraping" search results. To me, it is a joke. Because the people who complain us…

The users chose to give Craiglist permission to use their data. They did not choose to give PadMapper their data, or else they would have posted their listing to PadMapper. They did give Craiglist permission to prevent others from using their data without permission. In this context, scraping any version of Craiglist's site (whether CL itself or a third party cache) falls within Craiglist's rights under the license t…

Weak argument. Did they give Google "permission" to access the data (and store and republish it)?

Google is allowed in robots.txt. But that is not exactly what I would call an agreement.

The simple fact is this info is on the public web which, by its nature, copies and transfers data. That's what the web does. You upload something and it goes "viral". You have principles like the "Streisand effect" to contend with.

This goes back a long way. No doubt judges remember. The Ken Starr report on Ms. Lewinsky. Some random classified ad. Like it or not, information gets desseminated.

If you want to protect and restrict access to data, then you do not upload it to the public web. You put it behind access controls, e.g., a password. This is common sense.

If anyone has a claim here, it's users who do not want their ads on PadMapper (if there are any). CL has no standing and their motives are both pathetic and transparent.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#419

Post by ttran4 » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 1:57 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #370

jacoblyles wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist is a business. And a monopoly, like Microsoft in the 90s. Didn't they have the right to decide which browsers are packaged with their OS? Don't they even have the right to decide which browsers run on their OS?

Exactly, they've pretty much run every newspaper classified out of business. Consumers have no choice but to do business with craigslist if they want to list something in a classified.

That's why website owners should focus on creating another classified website that can compete with Craigslist instead of relying on their contents. That's where innovation starts.

And its not about a matter of choice the users have. There are many competitors in this market, and yes Craigslist dominates every one of them because they had an early advantage on the internet. Small sites can't just leech off the contents on their website and slap ads on it to make money.

Lets say Craigslist was a print company that produce and distribute classified as. Will it be right for a small company to steal their content and slap their ads on it and distribute it themselves?

Your argument won't work here, because there are many major newspaper that do 1000x in revenue and distribution than independent newspapers.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#420

Post by runako » Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 2:18 AM UTC

cwp wrote: post #403

runako wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The listing data that is presented and rendered on Padmapper's site isn't linked (e.g. the price & # of bedrooms). That is, I don't have to click a link to go to the original site to view the content. Padmapper does link to images, but Padmapper would be useless if it didn't also re-publish the content jacked from Craigslist.

Copyright doesn't apply to data. Only the text posted to CL is protected, and Padmapper isn't using that.

I'm not a lawyer. Perhaps you are, and you are certain that the facts of the complaint will be grounds for summary dismissal. My limited legal knowledge leads me to believe this will not happen, which would mean that Padmapper is going to bleed money, time, and energy until the case is resolved.

That was my main point; it's fairly useless for non-attorneys to argue legal cases on HN (my apologies if you're a lawyer and I'm just wasting your time).