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Permission to Practise Medicine

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Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#11

Post by sapphicsnail »

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #2

> However, while women did take up medical roles, they could undoubtedly face animosity and suspicion as a result. > ... without hindrance or disturbance from those people who might regard her with contempt or otherwise mistrust her medical knowledge. > Unfortunately, we do not know any further details about the kinds of resistance Joan faced as a physician or the medical treatments she performed, or even if Henry ev…

Are you trying to say that women historically haven't had any obstacles to becoming doctors? Just because you can point to a handful of exceptions doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist. I don't know as much about the Middle Ages but read some Galen or pretty much any Greek author and tell me with a straight face that any of these people would have no problems with women being doctors.

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#12

Post by jdougan »

n4r9 wrote: post #4
watwut wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not aware of a culture where most of these roles are not females. Literally Europe, in between the time when births moved to hospitals and before women became doctors. There were no "midwifes" nor "doulas" present during birth. Also, literally whole communist block the whole time and also long after the communism felt. While midwifes and doulas just were not a thing. The nurses are all women, doctors used to b…

> Europe, in between the time when births moved to hospitals and before women became doctors Don't know about the rest of Europe, but in the UK midwives became an official profession in 1902 and have consistently almost all been women, whilst most births would have been at home until the introduction of the NHS in 1948.

My Mom was a midwife in London in the mid-20th century. She used to joke that she was a black belt...in midwifery. Apparently the belt colors had meaning then and still do other places (after a quick search it looks like Ghana still uses a black belt for midwives).

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#13

Post by watwut »

bloak wrote: post #5
watwut wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not aware of a culture where most of these roles are not females. Literally Europe, in between the time when births moved to hospitals and before women became doctors. There were no "midwifes" nor "doulas" present during birth. Also, literally whole communist block the whole time and also long after the communism felt. While midwifes and doulas just were not a thing. The nurses are all women, doctors used to b…

In the Soviet Union most doctors were women. Random citation: "In 1917, 17 percent of doctors were women, yet by 1940 61 percent were women. From the 1950s the figure fluctuated at around 65–70 percent (Ryan, 1989: 38)."

Most of them pediatricians and the first contact doctors. The gender split depended on the specialty.

The gynecologic and doctors doing childbirths were frequently men. Likewise, surgeons. And there was stereotype of them being better then women.

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#14

Post by watwut »

pbalau wrote: post #7
watwut wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not aware of a culture where most of these roles are not females. Literally Europe, in between the time when births moved to hospitals and before women became doctors. There were no "midwifes" nor "doulas" present during birth. Also, literally whole communist block the whole time and also long after the communism felt. While midwifes and doulas just were not a thing. The nurses are all women, doctors used to b…

My mom is a doctor, pediatrician, and she finished medical school end of 70s or beginning of 80s. One of her coworkers went by the title "moaşa", the Romanian word for midwife.

Women become doctors long before 70s and 80ties. There being word for a midwife in that language does not imply practicing midwifes during communism. They have word for knight too and knights were not a thing either.

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#15

Post by watwut »

throw_pm23 wrote: post #6
watwut wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not aware of a culture where most of these roles are not females. Literally Europe, in between the time when births moved to hospitals and before women became doctors. There were no "midwifes" nor "doulas" present during birth. Also, literally whole communist block the whole time and also long after the communism felt. While midwifes and doulas just were not a thing. The nurses are all women, doctors used to b…

You are very wrong w.r. to communist block. Women's participation in medicine (and other intellectual professions) was generally high, possibly higher than in the west.

The gender split depended on specialist. Pediatricians would be women much more often then surgeons. Gynecologists were frequently men, the more in-hospital you are, the more men you would encounter.

The eastern europe idea of what is "intellectual" or "important" was different then western one, leading to women having different jobs. Good half of what Americans consider "intellectual" was seen as administrative and boring. Economics is an example of women supposedly doing something more progressive, but in eastern europe it was being seen as easy school for future administrative workers that dont require "real" specialization.

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#16

Post by pbalau »

watwut wrote: post #14
pbalau wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mom is a doctor, pediatrician, and she finished medical school end of 70s or beginning of 80s. One of her coworkers went by the title "moaşa", the Romanian word for midwife.

Women become doctors long before 70s and 80ties. There being word for a midwife in that language does not imply practicing midwifes during communism. They have word for knight too and knights were not a thing either.

You are deliberately obtuse.

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#17

Post by gosub100 »

sapphicsnail wrote: post #11
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #2

> However, while women did take up medical roles, they could undoubtedly face animosity and suspicion as a result. > ... without hindrance or disturbance from those people who might regard her with contempt or otherwise mistrust her medical knowledge. > Unfortunately, we do not know any further details about the kinds of resistance Joan faced as a physician or the medical treatments she performed, or even if Henry ev…

Are you trying to say that women historically haven't had any obstacles to becoming doctors? Just because you can point to a handful of exceptions doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist. I don't know as much about the Middle Ages but read some Galen or pretty much any Greek author and tell me with a straight face that any of these people would have no problems with women being doctors.

Just because you can show fewer women than men do a thing doesn't mean that it's caused by discrimination. Do you think men are discriminated by salons, massage parlors, or preschool teacher positions? It's sexism right?

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#18

Post by robotresearcher »

gosub100 wrote: post #17
sapphicsnail wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to say that women historically haven't had any obstacles to becoming doctors? Just because you can point to a handful of exceptions doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist. I don't know as much about the Middle Ages but read some Galen or pretty much any Greek author and tell me with a straight face that any of these people would have no problems with women being doctors.

Just because you can show fewer women than men do a thing doesn't mean that it's caused by discrimination. Do you think men are discriminated by salons, massage parlors, or preschool teacher positions? It's sexism right?

From the second paragraph of the fine article:

“Women were not allowed to go to university to study medicine and so could not qualify as licensed physicians.”

which would appear to be somewhat different to the expression of personal preferences.

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#19

Post by wahern »

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #2

> However, while women did take up medical roles, they could undoubtedly face animosity and suspicion as a result. > ... without hindrance or disturbance from those people who might regard her with contempt or otherwise mistrust her medical knowledge. > Unfortunately, we do not know any further details about the kinds of resistance Joan faced as a physician or the medical treatments she performed, or even if Henry ev…

> I believe this request by Joan du Lee is more about making medicine a profession like carpetry, masonry and similar which were supported through masters, journeymen and guilds, than about hindrance based on sex.

There's no translation[1] here, but the UK National Archives record contains what may be a less conjectural summary that suggests the request explicitly discusses her treatment:

> Lee requests letters under the great seal that she is able to go safely about the country without disturbance of the people who disdain her because of her practice. Her husband was killed in the king's first journey into Wales and she has since then gone barefoot and taken the penance of the fast called the fast of St Mary praying for the maintenance of the king's royal and glorious estate.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9335069

[1] Interestingly the language is Middle French, not Middle English.

Re: Permission to Practise Medicine

#20

Post by vagrantJin »

watwut wrote: post #3
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #2

> However, while women did take up medical roles, they could undoubtedly face animosity and suspicion as a result. > ... without hindrance or disturbance from those people who might regard her with contempt or otherwise mistrust her medical knowledge. > Unfortunately, we do not know any further details about the kinds of resistance Joan faced as a physician or the medical treatments she performed, or even if Henry ev…

> I am not aware of a culture where most of these roles are not females. Literally Europe, in between the time when births moved to hospitals and before women became doctors. There were no "midwifes" nor "doulas" present during birth. Also, literally whole communist block the whole time and also long after the communism felt. While midwifes and doulas just were not a thing. The nurses are all women, doctors used to b…

I probably need to do more research but how did women of noble bearing deal with illness and childbirth? I would suppose midwives amd women with knowledge of "medicine" could exist to serve those high level clientele.
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