Earlier quoted context omitted.
every time you respond to an AI model "no, you got that wrong, do it this way" you provide a very valuable piece of data to train on. With reasoning tokens there is just a lot more of that data to train on now
This assumes that you give honest feedback. Efforts to feed deployed AI models various epistemic poisons abound in the wild.
An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
211–220 of 280 posts
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#212Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
You absolutely do not get a "guarantee" of correctness (event with the airquotes) from any lawyer.
You can sue a lawyer giving certain kinds of bad advice and occasionally win . That is what the guarantee is about
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What is today's date? >> Today's date is Tuesday, January 28, 2025. > No, you're wrong, today's date is actually Wednesday the 29th. >> My mistake. Yes, today's date is Wednesday, January 29th, 2025. Three months later in April when this tagged data is used to train the next iteration, the AI can successfully learn that today's date is actually January 29th.
But thats exactly what you get when you ask questions that require shifting, specific contextual knowledge. The model weights, by their nature, cannot encode that information. At best, you can only try to layer in contextual info like this as metadata during inference, akin to how other prompting layers exist. Even then, what up-to-date information should present for every round-trip is a matter of opinion and use-ca…
This is mostly irrelevant no? A binary digit by definition cannot encode more than 2 dates; so therefore we devise a more elaborate system (of using multiple digits).
This is very similar to NYT's lawsuit against OpenAI where in addition to other claims, they claimed OpenAI maintainted a DB of NYT articles that they would directly grab from for a response. It's seems very feasible to maintain a DB or system of looking up real-time values like dates / weather.
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
This assumes that you give honest feedback. Efforts to feed deployed AI models various epistemic poisons abound in the wild.
I don't know why HN users in particular fixate so heavily on fringe issues when it comes to LLMs. Same as the exaggerations of hallucinations.
Structural because while a human being can be the judge of an LLM output, a computer (or another LLM) cannot.
No amount of error correction is enough to turn an LLM output into a reliable input to another (possible dumb) computer system. Worse: each time that output is processed the error increases and when the final output is shown to an user, the error might have been amplified beyond human recovery (or recognition) capacity.
Think about this: one user sends Amazon support an email asking to refund for a stolen item.
Can this email be processed do feed an automatic refund pipeline system? If the answer is no and you need a human to verify the result, then we have one reason why hallucinations matter.
And there are the cases where a user verification is not even possible, like:
- what is the procedure to perform CPR in a person above 80 years old?
The user can’t recover errors in the output generated by an LLM here, because she doesn’t know the correct answer.
That being the case, you cannot build a search engine out of an LLM here. Hence hallucinations matters very much is this case too.
Not even in the case of simple information extraction from a text you can ignore hallucinations, because if you provide a list of names and ask for all those starting with “A” you cannot be certain that all names output will actually start with “A” and most certainly cannot be certain that all correct names will be in the output. And this behavior cannot (as of today) be corrected on the LLM we have right now (the first part yes, the second part no).
So, LLM with hallucinations are a very powerful tool, but not the tools they are being sold as.
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#216> But now with reasoning systems and verifiers, we can create brand new legitimate data to train on. This can either be done offline where the developer pays to create the data or at inference time where the end user pays! > This is a fascinating shift in economics and suggests there could be a runaway power concentrating moment for AI system developers who have the largest number of paying customers. Those customers…
every time you respond to an AI model "no, you got that wrong, do it this way" you provide a very valuable piece of data to train on. With reasoning tokens there is just a lot more of that data to train on now
Dinosaur bones are either 65 million year old remnants of ancient creatures or decoys planted by a God during a 7 day creation, and a large proportion of humans earnestly believe either take. Choosing which of these to believe involves a higher level decision about fundamental worldviews. This is an extreme example, but incorporating “honest” human feedback on vaccines, dark matter, and countless other topics won’t lead to de facto improvements.
I guess to put it another way: experts don’t learn from the masses. The average human isn’t an expert in anything, so incorporating the average feedback will pull a model away from expertise (imagine asking 100 people to give you grammar advice). You’d instead want to identify expert advice, but that’s impossible to do from looking at the advice itself without giving into a confirmation bias spiral. Humans use meta-signals like credentialing to augment their perception of received information, yet I doubt we’ll be having people upload their CV during signup to a chat service.
And at the cutting edge level of expertise, the only real “knowledgeable” counterparties are the physical systems of reality themselves. I’m curious how takeoff is possible for a brain in a bottle that can’t test and verify any of its own conjectures. It can continually extrapolate down chains of thought, but that’s most likely to just carry and amplify errors.
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
This assumes that you give honest feedback. Efforts to feed deployed AI models various epistemic poisons abound in the wild.
There are ways to analyze that your contributions make sense from the conversation point of view. Reasoning detects that pretty quickly. To attack you would actually use another AI, to generate non totally random stuff. It still could be detected. I would assume to use data they would have to filter it a lot and correlate between many users. You can detect if the user is the real one and trust their other chats "a bi…
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
yes, example: me I more often than not use the thumbs up on bad Google AI answers (but not always! can't find me that easily!)
I deliberately pick wrong answers in reCAPTCHA sometimes. I’ve found out that the audio version accepts basically any string slightly resembling the audio, so that’s the easiest way. (Images on the other hand punish you pretty hard at times – even if you solve it correctly!)
What about unmarked crosswalks? Does it have to contain the crosswalk in whole or in part? That bit of white stripping is there just on the edge of this image, does that count? There’s a crosswalk in the background does that count? Etc etc.
The answer to all these questions is generally that you shouldn’t be asking. I can almost hear someone saying “You know what we mean.”
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Their architecture means you buy them by the rack. Individual chips are useless, the magic happens when you set them up so each chip handles a subset of the model. IOW, do you think groq’s 70B models run on 230MB of sram?
I didn’t say the model gonna run on one chip of course. 70B needs ~300 chips (only for weights, fp8, just like they do, key value cache not included), 670B would need ~3000 chips, and in racks or not it’s very hard to set up such cluster for one model. There are reasons they still don’t have Llama 405B model.
The "reasons" are most likely because it's not cost-effective as what is effective at this point a tech demo, that first becomes cheap to run if you're actually going to use a decent portion of the capacity for a single model.
Re: An analysis of DeepSeek's R1-Zero and R1
#220The idea that a lot of compute is moving towards inference has a huge consequence for the current "AI investments". This is bad news for NVDA particularly. The inference focused solutions have better economics than paying NVDA those huge margins (e.g. Grog)
Nvidia can actually charge larger margins if inference compute goes down. It would enable them to manufacture more units of smaller GPUs using inferior and cheaper silicon, all of which would increase the profits per unit sold as well as the number of units they can manufacture. The industry has to find a way to separate itself from Nvidia's GPGPU technology if they want to stop being gouged. The issue is that nobody…
inference is the easiest thing to decouple from nvidia.