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Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

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Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#251

Post by lovecg »

mmaunder wrote: post #118

This will be the worst disaster since Colgan in 2009 which is the crash that upped the hours requirement for ATP pilots from 250 to 1500 even though both pilots had over 1500 hours. I think this is going to be a very big deal and very quickly become a political football. Regardless, this is absolutely awful and extremely unfortunate.

This is an often repeated misconception. ATP always needed 1500 hours. What wasn’t required is for both pilots to have an ATP, just the captain - the flight officer only needed a commercial certificate. Airlines would hire with lower hours and train on the job.

While both pilots in the crash did have over 1500 hours, the flight officer did not in fact hold an ATP. The rule also changed some of the ATP training requirements, and there were other regulation changes on duty cycles, etc.

It’s very possible we’ve had a run of good luck since 2009. It’s also possible some of the rule changes helped. I wouldn’t dismiss that possibility too quickly.

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/notice/n_8900.225....

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#252

Post by kristjansson »

jonathanlb wrote: post #99
droopyEyelids wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of ai are you talking about? The non deterministic black box LLMs we have now?

Of course not LLMs, but approaches using mixed integer programming, genetic algorithms, and/or simulated annealing.

Oh, algorithms, they should have thought of those.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#254

Post by LeoPanthera »

windowshopping wrote: post #248

The real question, I feel, is whether the current U.S. government as it exists in 2025 is still capable of continuing to improve things, and whether it's still putting all the lessons of the past into practice - or whether we were just coasting on a combination of luck and the vestigial safety left to us by the diligence of the past.

[flagged]

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#255

Post by kristjansson »

jonathanlb wrote: post #33
joezydeco wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, San Carlos Airport (KSQL, near San Francisco) is going ATC-zero on February 1st. The tower will be unstaffed. https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/CASMATEO/bulletins/... "The FAA has awarded a new contract for air traffic services at SQL to Robinson Aviation (RVA). However, the contract does not include locality pay to account for the high cost of living in the San Francisco Bay Area. As a result, RVA’…

Honest question: are air traffic controllers at risk for being replaced with AI systems? My initial thought is no, there is too much complexity, but AI could help ease the load. I'm not really informed about air traffic systems, just curious.

Replaced, no. ATC, at least while we still have human pilots, is a system for instructing, organizing, and responding to humans, with all their flexibility and foible.

Now a copilot e.g. ATC audio parsed by an LLM into intended tracks, requests from traffic, integrated into the scope with projections for future separation etc…

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#256

Post by rob74 »

jonstewart wrote: post #191
rayiner wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disagreeing, but is there something particularly wrong with DCA?

DCA is great to fly in and out of (I live in DC proper), as it's close, isn't hard to get to, and has a Metro (our subway) station right in front of the terminal, and the airport is fairly easy to navigate once you're in. Dulles now has a Metro station, but it's still far away from the terminal and it's hard to navigate, with gates very far away from the terminal; other than the Saarinen architecture, everything else…

> more funding/staffing for ATC

More funding? From an administration that is currently doing its best to get rid of as many federal employees as possible and has an extra "department" (led by you-know-who) dedicated to that? What they will probably do with ATC is privatize it (which is actually a reasonable thing to do - it's private in most of Europe, but if the intention behind it is to save money, it will probably not improve the system).

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#257

Post by chinathrow »

HeavenFox wrote: post #26
reaperman wrote: post #20

Does anyone have the flight path for the helicopter? (Tail number PAT25). FlightAware doesn't show it but it might have been tracked by open source ADS-B receivers. This helicopter was often utilized for VIP transport.

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae313d

Note: This is MLAT, not ADSB-Out data.

https://skybrary.aero/articles/multilateration

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#258

Post by kristjansson »

NaOH wrote: post #162
insane_dreamer wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> appropriate degree what's considered an appropriate degree for ATC?

In her case it was a Bachelors in Aviation and Aerospace Science with an Air Traffic Control Concentration. There may be other programs or concentrations which are acceptable.

> Bachelors in Aviation and Aerospace Science with an Air Traffic Control Concentration

I’m not that far removed from my time in college, but I’m shocked by the specificity of that.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#259

Post by agsnu »

Animats wrote: post #246
matheweis wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FAA publishes supplemental charts specifically for helicopters in areas with high concentrations of helicopter activity: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/productc... Specifically the Baltimore-Washington route chart was relevant for these flights: https://aeronav.faa.gov/visual/10-31-2024/PDFs/Balt-Wash_Hel... If you find the DCA airport on that chart, you’ll find routes 1 and 4 which roughly c…

Right. Helicopter was on Helicopter Route 4, per the map, apparently on course. Aircraft was on approach to Runway 33, apparently on course. That helicopter route crosses the approach to runway 33. That's controlled airspace. How did they both have clearance to be there? We'll know more tomorrow as all the audio and radar recordings are examined.

They were almost certainly both cleared to maintain visual separation.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#260

Post by camgunz »

dylan604 wrote: post #133
rayiner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone writing regulations were as rigorous as the FAA people wouldn’t be clamoring to reduce regulations.

You mean the same FAA people that allowed Boeing to self certify? The FAA is not spotless. I can only imagine how much worse air travel would be without them, but they are only run by humans trying to work in a political controlled environment.

The FAA is pretty bonkers; Rayiner is right here. Besides, what other system beyond "humans trying to work in a political controlled environment" are you advocating here?
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