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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

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Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#271

Post by icebraining »

adunsmoor wrote: post #229
ataggart wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using th…

Even if you go with the "it's not their data" argument Craigslist would seem to own the specific compilation of the data. I'd apply the same copyright principle as phone books or encyclopedias. http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate.

You should read that link:

the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a compilation work such as a database must contain a minimum level of creativity in order to be protectable under the Copyright Act.

The Supreme Court (...) held that Rural's white pages are not entitled to copyright protection, since the white pages did not meet the statutory requirement for originality under 17 U.S.C. §102(a).

Cragslist is completely automated. There's absolutely no creativity involved.

Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate.

Unfortunately for them, "sweat of the brow" doesn't afford copyright protection in the US.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#272

Post by ceejayoz »

stcredzero wrote: post #254
res0nat0r wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why Craigslist is valuable is because of it's large network . It is obvious that smaller sites like PadMapper want to slowly try and chip away at Craiglist content (see PadLister) after they hopefully gain enough traction to supplant them. Padmapper / Padlister are fine to start their own sites and have users come and post their listings there, but not to copy content from Craigslist after they specificall…

> It is obvious that smaller sites like PadMapper want to slowly try and chip away at Craiglist content It's not Craigslist's content. It's our content, the general public's. Craigslist is just a caretaker. Right now, it's a caretaker acting in its own interests against the public's.

The general public gave it to Craigslist under readily available terms. The general public is free to also give it to your service, but that's up to them.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#273

Post by res0nat0r »

stcredzero wrote: post #254
res0nat0r wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why Craigslist is valuable is because of it's large network . It is obvious that smaller sites like PadMapper want to slowly try and chip away at Craiglist content (see PadLister) after they hopefully gain enough traction to supplant them. Padmapper / Padlister are fine to start their own sites and have users come and post their listings there, but not to copy content from Craigslist after they specificall…

> It is obvious that smaller sites like PadMapper want to slowly try and chip away at Craiglist content It's not Craigslist's content. It's our content, the general public's. Craigslist is just a caretaker. Right now, it's a caretaker acting in its own interests against the public's.

Yes you did post some facts about your listing to CL, it is also well within Craigslists right to allow others to copy it or not. Just because you supplied the data to CL doesn't mean you can dictate to them how they should run their business.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#274

Post by sliverstorm »

Goronmon wrote: post #234
nlh wrote: post #138

I find this sort of thing very frustrating to read: "The search tool is antiquated, the images are poor or nonexistent, locations of listings are hardly dependable, and you can forget about an integrated way to save anything for later reference. There is a litany of shortcomings that come with the Craigslist apartment search; they are many and they are painful..." If you don't like the site, don't like the UI, and ca…

If you don't like the site, don't like the UI, and can't stand the UX, then don't use the site. Nobody is forcing you to search for an apartment on CL. Nobody is forcing owners to list apartments on CL. Apartments aren't a fungible item. If I'm looking for an apartment in a certain area and 75% of the apartments in that area are only being listed on Craigslist, then how can I realistically "choose" to use another ave…

There are huge barriers preventing landlords from listing their apartments outside of craigslist. Nothing is as popular, so why waste the time?

I think you have a flawed idea of what constitutes "huge barriers". The only thing stopping them from listing elsewhere is a cost-benefit analysis? I weep.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#275

Post by usaar333 »

nlh wrote: post #138

I find this sort of thing very frustrating to read: "The search tool is antiquated, the images are poor or nonexistent, locations of listings are hardly dependable, and you can forget about an integrated way to save anything for later reference. There is a litany of shortcomings that come with the Craigslist apartment search; they are many and they are painful..." If you don't like the site, don't like the UI, and ca…

> If you truly need the data, then you need Craigslist and you have an obligation to use it the way they (and only they) want you to use it.

This is what we call a monopoly. Many people (apartment hunters in this context) need to use Craigslist because there are no viable alternatives. Just like you have to pay your local utility for water or power -- there are alternatives, but not viable ones.

And a two-sided monopoly is a very real monopoly.

The difference is that other monopolies get regulated; Craigslist is not. Given their current behavior, I'd strongly support a law that explicitly denies craigslist any exclusive right to their listing data.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#276

Post by juiceandjuice »

pg wrote: post #210

Craig Newmark said on Quora that the reason they didn't like people building stuff on top of Craigslist was simply the extra bandwidth they consumed: http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-... But now that 3Taps has found an ingenious way to get at the data with zero extra bandwidth cost to Craigslist (by retrieving it from the Google cache rather than CL itself), it's clear that what Craigslist…

When I think of Padmapper, I think of the naughtiness:

"Though the most successful founders are usually good people, they tend to have a piratical gleam in their eye. They're not Goody Two-Shoes type good. Morally, they care about getting the big questions right, but not about observing proprieties. That's why I'd use the word naughty rather than evil. They delight in breaking rules, but not rules that matter. This quality may be redundant though; it may be implied by imagination.

Sam Altman of Loopt is one of the most successful alumni, so we asked him what question we could put on the Y Combinator application that would help us discover more people like him. He said to ask about a time when they'd hacked something to their advantage—hacked in the sense of beating the system, not breaking into computers. It has become one of the questions we pay most attention to when judging applications."

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#277

Post by ataggart »

res0nat0r wrote: post #205
ataggart wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using th…

The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds)…

The notion that I am bound by whatever legalese someone happens to put on their publicly accessible website is absurd in the extreme; I am not the one checking the box to submit a post. CL is perfectly able to restrict read-access to those who agree to the terms, e.g., by requiring registration. That they choose not to is their choice, and the state should not be used as a substitute bludgeon whenever they dislike the unintended consequences.

Furthermore, the publicly-accessible data isn't being copied, it's being consumed. I may consume the data to find an apartment. Someone might consume the data to calculate the average market prices in a city. Padmapper consumes the data to generate locations on a map.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#278

Post by mark-r »

IanDrake wrote: post #119
Maascamp wrote: post #43

The tone in this article is unbelievable. > The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data There is no question. Craigslist isn't stopping Padmapper from being built, its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data . The continuous attempts to reframe Craigslist's actions as an attempt to stifle innovation seem almost surreal. I just can't understand how a com…

> its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data Is it Craigslist's data? Does Craigslist own the posts that caused women to be murdered and stolen property to be sold? If they own that data, then they must be culpable (to some degree) for these bad acts. If they own it, they are now more than just a service provider (IMO) and can no longer be protected by the DCA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Dece…

Craigslist clearly states that they don't own the data. But just because they don't own it doesn't make it public domain - the ownership belongs to the person who created the listing. To be totally free to repost the data you would need to get explicit permission from each owner.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#279

Post by metageek »

adunsmoor wrote: post #229
ataggart wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using th…

Even if you go with the "it's not their data" argument Craigslist would seem to own the specific compilation of the data. I'd apply the same copyright principle as phone books or encyclopedias. http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate.

>I'd apply the same copyright principle as phone books

So would I—phone books are not subject to compilation copyright, because there's no editorial choice going on. That was settled in the _Feist_ case.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#280

Post by usaar333 »

res0nat0r wrote: post #255
usaar333 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet that 99% of CL users not only never read this TOS, but they also do not care if padmapper copies their listings.

I've never read my credit card TOS, so I don't have to pay my bills right?

What does that have to do anything? The point is that users do not care if other companies copy their listing data (and aren't even aware of such a restriction).
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