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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#831

Post by dluan »

lou1306 wrote: post #735
golly_ned wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're still a minnow 3K+ employees, $3B+ revenue, ... sure, not BigTech but hardly a minnow. A company that big can chew gum and walk at the same time.

They're trying to bark up a tree that might happen to be backed by the People's Republic of China. That's not their league, and even Microsoft would think twice before getting into that kind of kerfuffle.

I think commenters don't know about Bill Gates personally wining and dining Hu Jintao in Medina 20 years ago.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#832

Post by gitaarik »

dragonwriter wrote: post #424
tensor wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not correct. First of all, training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea because you'll end up with a strictly less accurate model (usually). But secondly, and more to your point, even if you were to use training data from another model, YOU STILL NEED TO DO ALL THE TRAINING. Using data from another model won't save you any training time.

> training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea It's...not, and its repeatedly been proven in practice that this is an invalid generalization because it is missing necessary qualifications, and its funny that this myth keeps persisting. It's probably a bad idea to use uncurated output from another AI to train a model if you are trying to make a better model rather than a distillation of the fir…

So 1 + 1 = 3?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#834

Post by karaterobot »

thayne wrote: post #806
wzdd wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

Even if that narrative is true, they were still undercut by DeepSeek. Maybe DeepSeek couldn't have succeeded without o1, but then it should have been even easier for OpenAI to do what DeepSeek did, since they have better access to o1.

This argument would excuse many kinds of intellectual property theft. "The person whose work I stole didn't deserve to have it protected, because I took their first draft and made a better second draft. Why didn't they just skip right to the second draft, like me?"

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#835

Post by bryanrasmussen »

chii wrote: post #827
wzdd wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

> It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. it is, but the 2nd order logic says that if they are trying to cast doubt, it means they've got nothing better to offer and casting doubt is the only step they have. if i was an investor in openAI, this should be very scary as it simply means I've overvalued it.

>it is, but the 2nd order logic says that if they are trying to cast doubt, it means they've got nothing better to offer and casting doubt is the only step they have.

this implies that when casting doubt the doubt is always false, if the doubt here is true, then it is a good offer.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#836

Post by randombits0 »

leobg wrote: post #711

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them. That is absurd. Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved an…

Recipes, that is, lists of ingredients and preparation instructions, are specifically uncopyrightable. Perhaps that’s why they used it as an example.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#838

Post by throwr38274 »

me_me_me wrote: post #774
bashtoni wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claude will also often refer to itself as ChatGPT. This is not a 'China' problem.

Jesus Christ people! If you stole my wallet because someone else stole your wallet it DOSE NOT MAKE IT OK. Stealing is stealing. Stop excusing it.

Your analogy is not correct, since you were the one who stole the wallet in the first place.

The correct analogy would be, someone took the wallet you stole and gave it back to the person.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#839

Post by ordu »

chii wrote: post #827
wzdd wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

> It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. it is, but the 2nd order logic says that if they are trying to cast doubt, it means they've got nothing better to offer and casting doubt is the only step they have. if i was an investor in openAI, this should be very scary as it simply means I've overvalued it.

> it is, but the 2nd order logic says that if they are trying to cast doubt, it means they've got nothing better to offer and casting doubt is the only step they have.

I don't think that this is a working argument, because all their steps I can imagine are not mutually exclusive.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#840

Post by hatmanstack »

chii wrote: post #827
wzdd wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

> It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. it is, but the 2nd order logic says that if they are trying to cast doubt, it means they've got nothing better to offer and casting doubt is the only step they have. if i was an investor in openAI, this should be very scary as it simply means I've overvalued it.

DeepSeek is a card trick. They came up with a clever way to do multi-headed attention, the rest is fluff. Janus-Pro-7B is a joke. It would have mattered a year ago but also just a poor imitation of what's already on the market. Especially when they've obfuscated that they're using a discrete encoder to downsample image generation.
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