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Why I Love Computer Science

cs.caltech.edu

21–28 of 28 posts

Re: Why I Love Computer Science

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The original post is echoing many of the views expressed at more length by Sussman and Wisdom in their book "Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics." There they showed that a computational expression of classical mechanics was much more explicit and rigorous than the standard mathematical or physical treatments. They also have a similar long paper on differential geometry from a computational pe…

Their point in SICM was that traditional notation was not as ambiguous as their computational notation. That's because traditional notation is designed to be convenient rather than explicit. They are right, but this does not mean that physics lacks rigour. More explicit notations were always available and physicists, being more intelligent than computers, were capable of resolving the ambiguities to reveal the fully…

Do you mean, "was not as unambiguous"?

Re: Why I Love Computer Science

#22
post #8

I think this guy has mathematics totally wrong. Maths just doesn't work today the way it did in Newton's time, and even back then people weren't satisfied with Newton's proofs, but they lacked an alternative so they had to use them anyway. If the author had his way, we would have refused to accept Newtonian physics for two centuries! Could you imagine the damage that would have done? > [A]ny realistic mathematical pr…

I think this guy just isn't too hot at mathematics. Omitting a trivial step (or domain specific knowledge) is not a lack of rigour, but a courtesy to the reader. The details can always be filled in cleanly. A very astute comment. In principle, mathematical proofs are supposed to be every bit as completely described as computer programs, but perhaps not as explicitly expressed. Edsger Dijkstra used to refer to mathema…

Dijkstra also used to talk about how computing science was a particularly difficult branch of mathematics, basically for the same reason that Vanier is asserting; he recommended that only particularly good mathematicians should switch to computing science, leaving the mediocre mathematicians to what they were already doing.

Re: Why I Love Computer Science

#24
post #8

I think this guy has mathematics totally wrong. Maths just doesn't work today the way it did in Newton's time, and even back then people weren't satisfied with Newton's proofs, but they lacked an alternative so they had to use them anyway. If the author had his way, we would have refused to accept Newtonian physics for two centuries! Could you imagine the damage that would have done? > [A]ny realistic mathematical pr…

A mathematical proof is a series of steps each of which the listener is confident they could prove to be correct. The more difficult or surprising a result the more steps you will have to add to convince the listener.

Similarly when you are writing a program you don't know the exact inner workings of every function you call. You should, however, be confident that they work and that you could understand them if you need to. The source for a computer program omits plenty of contextual information thats needed to make it meaningful. The only completely unambiguous interpretation of the program is the machine code which is analogous to the proofs in the principia mathematica. Its nice to know how it works in principle but you dont want to work with it unless you really have to.

Re: Why I Love Computer Science

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The original post is echoing many of the views expressed at more length by Sussman and Wisdom in their book "Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics." There they showed that a computational expression of classical mechanics was much more explicit and rigorous than the standard mathematical or physical treatments. They also have a similar long paper on differential geometry from a computational pe…

Their point in SICM was that traditional notation was not as ambiguous as their computational notation. That's because traditional notation is designed to be convenient rather than explicit. They are right, but this does not mean that physics lacks rigour. More explicit notations were always available and physicists, being more intelligent than computers, were capable of resolving the ambiguities to reveal the fully…

You write that "More explicit notations were always available and physicists, being more intelligent than computers, were capable of resolving the ambiguities to reveal the fully rigorous structure underneath."

I doubt that's true. For example, here's what Piet Hut, now a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton, writes about his experiences with classical mechanics as an undergraduate in his review of SICM available at http://www.ids.ias.edu/~piet/publ/other/sicm.html :

"Soon I went through the library in search of books on the variational principle in classical mechanics. I found several heavy tomes, borrowed them all, and started on the one that looked most attractive. Alas, it didn't take long for me to realize that there was quite a bit of hand-waving involved. There was no clear definition of the procedure used for computing path integrals, let alone for the operations of differentiating them in various ways, by using partial derivatives and/or using an ordinary derivative along a particular path. And when and why the end points of the various paths had to be considered fixed or open to variation also was unclear, contributing to the overall confusion.

Working through the canned exercises was not very difficult, and from an instrumental point of view, my book was quite clear, as long as the reader would stick to simple examples. But the ambiguity of the presentation frustrated me, and I started scanning through other, even more detailed books. Alas, nowhere did I find the clarity that I desired, and after a few months I simply gave up. Like generations of students before me, I reluctantly accepted the dictum that `you should not try to understand quantum mechanics, since that will lead you astray for doing physics', and going even further, I also gave up trying to really understand classical mechanics! Psychological defense mechanisms turned my bitter sense of disappointment into a dull sense of disenchantment."

Re: Why I Love Computer Science

#26
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their point in SICM was that traditional notation was not as ambiguous as their computational notation. That's because traditional notation is designed to be convenient rather than explicit. They are right, but this does not mean that physics lacks rigour. More explicit notations were always available and physicists, being more intelligent than computers, were capable of resolving the ambiguities to reveal the fully…

Do you mean, "was not as unambiguous "?

Indeed I do. Thanks.

Re: Why I Love Computer Science

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their point in SICM was that traditional notation was not as ambiguous as their computational notation. That's because traditional notation is designed to be convenient rather than explicit. They are right, but this does not mean that physics lacks rigour. More explicit notations were always available and physicists, being more intelligent than computers, were capable of resolving the ambiguities to reveal the fully…

You write that "More explicit notations were always available and physicists, being more intelligent than computers, were capable of resolving the ambiguities to reveal the fully rigorous structure underneath." I doubt that's true. For example, here's what Piet Hut, now a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton, writes about his experiences with classical mechanics as an undergraduate…

I actually agree with Sussman and Wisdom (and the author of this article) that physics is taught in a very sloppy manner, and that the computational notation has huge advantages. But that's not the point I (or they) were making. Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics were perfectly rigorous before Sussman and Wisdom came along, even if they weren't taught very well. If mechanics had really been deep-down sloppy, then Sussman and Wisdom would now be heralded alongside Newton and Einstein for their incredible contribution to science! Rather than just creating a new notation, they would have advanced science incalculably, turning vague and untestable theories into hard empirical science for the first time!

But that's obviously not what happened. Physicists were always capable of making exact calculations and predictions from Lagrangian mechanics. SICM contains no new theories, theorems or proofs, just a more explicit way of representing old ones. Nothing new was discovered and no old notions were clarified. Instead, they just found a better way of teaching mechanics, one that didn't rely on the implicit knowledge that masters of the subject already possessed. They were only capable of doing this because Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics were well-defined in the first place. If they hadn't been then they would have had to advance a new theory of mechanics to replace them, rather than just re-presenting an old one.

Re: Why I Love Computer Science

#28
post #13
post #4

A compiled computer program is certainly a rigorous description of something, God knows what, certainly not the programmer. This is just funny: "I think computer science has a tremendous amount to offer the fields of logic and mathematics. Specifically, I think that requiring all formulas to be executable by a finite, deterministic system (a computer program) could lead to a great increase in the level of rigor of th…

What, with his comment about being able to eventually understand sociology using physics, I think this essay is easily 3 Cuil.

what does that mean?
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