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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

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Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#201

Post by praxulus »

sliverstorm wrote: post #172
IanDrake wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data Is it Craigslist's data? Does Craigslist own the posts that caused women to be murdered and stolen property to be sold? If they own that data, then they must be culpable (to some degree) for these bad acts. If they own it, they are now more than just a service provider (IMO) and can no longer be protected by the DCA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Dece…

As I see it, they don't own the information, they own the database. For example, they do not own the fact that you are selling a toothbrush. The do own the records on their servers which catalog the fact that you are selling a toothbrush. Why? Because they are the ones who went to the trouble of gathering and storing those records. This is somewhat akin to recording a verbal note from a customer in a book, and storin…

But if you let anybody use your library, and you don't own the copyright to the content, why are you allowed to stop people from snapping photos of the books and posting them on the web? It's one thing if the copyright holders asked you to, but in this case they want as much distribution as they can get.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#202

Post by greyboy »

keeptrying wrote: post #90

Heartbreaking. Padmapper is the best apartment rental interface out there. The author has been single handedly working on this for 3-4 years and constantly improving his system. Legally he might not have been in the right but we should be helping him out not uselessly debating and casting judgement. If theres anyone who exmplifies the true spirit of Hacker News it would be the author of PadMapper.

> Legally he might not have been in the right but we should be helping him out not uselessly debating and casting judgement.

If he's not "legally not in the right," why should I be helping him (doesn't that imply casting a judgement - that PadMapper is elevated above CraigsList because it's "the best apartment rental interface our there")?

What if the tables were turned and CraigsList was violating PadMapper's TOS? Would you be willing to help CraigsList (they serve more than only apartment listings)?

Should somebody be rewarded, even if (legally) not in the right, just because he/she is a hard worker/smarty pants/exemplifies the True Hacker Spirit?

I often wonder if there is some sort of unwritten clause that You-Must-Pull-For-The-Underdog to join Hacker News? (In the name of Divine Disruption, of course.)

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#203

Post by blissofbeing »

I feel like there is a win win solution for everyone here.

How about Padmapper develop a plugin for chrome/firefox that once you go to a craigslist appartment list page, it does what it does now: loops through them all and displays them on a google map. Padmapper could even develop on API on their end which handled all the hard work of actually finding the correct address of the posts and sends it back to the plugin in a nice format and all it has to do is plot in on a map that the plugin places on the craigslist page.

This sounds legal to me, as Padmapper isn't actually storing anything, and it puts a UI on top of the apartment search page.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#204

Post by MichaelGG »

chimi wrote: post #37
cwp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Padmapper doesn't steal IP.

It's pretty clear that Padmapper is making use of the craigslist posts without the rights to do so, which is defined by Merriam-Webster as "stealing". STEALING transitive verb 1a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stealing If you're going to downvote me, that's fine, but if you do, please show how copyright infrin…

Because it's copyright infringement, that's what it is, no one disagrees on that. Using "steal" tries to load copyright violations with a specific meaning, and that is not agreed on. It frames the debate, and people take issue with that as it creates a more emotional and less objective discussion.

Also: http://lesswrong.com/lw/nz/arguing_by_definition/

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#205

Post by res0nat0r »

ataggart wrote: post #184
Maascamp wrote: post #43

The tone in this article is unbelievable. > The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data There is no question. Craigslist isn't stopping Padmapper from being built, its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data . The continuous attempts to reframe Craigslist's actions as an attempt to stifle innovation seem almost surreal. I just can't understand how a com…

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using th…

The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so:

Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds) is prohibited. As a limited exception, general purpose Internet search engines and noncommercial public archives will be entitled to access craigslist without individual written agreements executed with CL that specifically authorize an exception to this prohibition if, in all cases and individual instances: (a) they provide a direct hyperlink to the relevant craigslist website, service, forum or content; (b) they access craigslist from a stable IP address using an easily identifiable agent; and (c) they comply with CL's robots.txt file; provided however, that CL may terminate this limited exception as to any search engine or public archive (or any person or entity relying on this provision to access craigslist without their own written agreement executed with CL), at any time and in its sole discretion, upon written notice, including, without limitation, by email notice.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#206

Post by nostromo »

unavoidable wrote: post #199
nostromo wrote: post #60

Commenters here make this sound like an open and shut case in favor of Craigslist. IANAL, so could someone explain why Google's index of material covered by copyright is ok and PadMapper's is not?

[Law student here, but I don't know the full details of the claim CL is making] The case doesn't actually seem open and shut at all. CL seems to have a "moral high ground" in that they provide the original service and the platform for users to post information, but the legal ground is more shaky. It is relatively settled in copyright law (which appears to be the main thrust of CL's argument) that effort alone does no…

Thanks, very interesting!

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#207

Post by unavoidable »

unavoidable wrote: post #199
nostromo wrote: post #60

Commenters here make this sound like an open and shut case in favor of Craigslist. IANAL, so could someone explain why Google's index of material covered by copyright is ok and PadMapper's is not?

[Law student here, but I don't know the full details of the claim CL is making] The case doesn't actually seem open and shut at all. CL seems to have a "moral high ground" in that they provide the original service and the platform for users to post information, but the legal ground is more shaky. It is relatively settled in copyright law (which appears to be the main thrust of CL's argument) that effort alone does no…

In the meantime, CL might be able to get an injunction to stop Padmapper from using their listings, and that itself might be what they're after until a settlement is reached.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#209

Post by praxulus »

DanBC wrote: post #192
moron wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is effectively shutting down Padmapper. Apartment listings are on Craigslist. As I have said elsewhere, I think Craigslist are within their rights here, but the situation still sucks. People want to browse apartment listings on a map, and Craigslist won't let us.

It seems that Craigslist sucks for people trying to find a property. Does it suck for people on the other end - people with a property that they'd like to rent to others? Why hasn't some other solution come onto the market to fix the problems of craigslist?

Padmapper was that solution.

Are you asking why nobody has made a website that competes directly with Craiglist, but with a better interface? Padmapper allows you to post listing directly, but it's very difficult to get buyers or sellers to bother with a different marketplace when all the other buyers and sellers are already using Craigslist. You can't beat Craigslist on price, and many non-technical people are already comfortable with the existing system. Convincing them to switch to a different marketplace with fewer potential customers and a new interface is very difficult, no matter how great your features are.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#210

Post by pg »

Craig Newmark said on Quora that the reason they didn't like people building stuff on top of Craigslist was simply the extra bandwidth they consumed:

http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-...

But now that 3Taps has found an ingenious way to get at the data with zero extra bandwidth cost to Craigslist (by retrieving it from the Google cache rather than CL itself), it's clear that what Craigslist really dislikes is competition.

While Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here, this case shows that for all their talk about their benevolent aims, Craigslist is no different from other companies.

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