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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

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Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#191

Post by jcdavis »

guelo wrote: post #183
patdennis wrote: post #25

My logical brain says that suing Padmapper is perfectly reasonable. My emotional brain is crying at the idea of using raw Craigslist ads to find an apartment the next time I move to a new city. I move to a new city every year, usually on short notice, and I often go into the process of apartment hunting with no knowledge of local neighborhoods, the public transportation system, or general geography. Without Padmapper…

That's ridiculous. Craigslist lets you refine your search down to the neighborhood. It's not that hard to use. People find apartments on there all the time.

It may not that hard to use, but Padmapper is still a far superior experience (eg email alerts on apartments in an area which meet your criteria)

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#192

Post by DanBC »

moron wrote: post #166
jetti wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hardly shutting down Padmapper. It is just a roadblock and they would have to find another source of data. It has been clear for many years that Craigslist doesn't want their site scraped, so building a business that is so dependent that it would close if they lost that source the business would be ruined is extremely short sighted. Edit: finished my thought that I left out mid-sentence.

No, it is effectively shutting down Padmapper. Apartment listings are on Craigslist. As I have said elsewhere, I think Craigslist are within their rights here, but the situation still sucks. People want to browse apartment listings on a map, and Craigslist won't let us.

It seems that Craigslist sucks for people trying to find a property.

Does it suck for people on the other end - people with a property that they'd like to rent to others?

Why hasn't some other solution come onto the market to fix the problems of craigslist?

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#193

Post by coliveira »

kytmizuno wrote: post #120
chimi wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that Padmapper is making use of the craigslist posts without the rights to do so, which is defined by Merriam-Webster as "stealing". STEALING transitive verb 1a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stealing If you're going to downvote me, that's fine, but if you do, please show how copyright infrin…

Does craigslist actually own the copyrights to user generate text and images?

Of course. From their TOS: "You automatically grant and assign to CL, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant and assign to CL, a perpetual, irrevocable, unlimited, fully paid, fully sub-licensable (through multiple tiers), worldwide license to copy, perform, display, distribute, prepare derivative works from (including, without limitation, incorporating into other works) and otherwise use any content that you post."

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#194

Post by res0nat0r »

soup10 wrote: post #143
jaysonelliot wrote: post #66

"(Craigslist) said it offered a license that would have allowed PadMapper to use its data on mobile applications but that the competitor did not accept the terms." But on the other hand, "users and developers are exasperated with Craigslist’s insistence on preserving an outdated interface and design." I don't know the legal merits of either party's position, but from an ethical perspective, I tend to side with Craigs…

I don't like Craigslist because of lock in. Sellers must sell there because they are the biggest market, buyers must buy there because they are the biggest market. Everyone is locked in. Lock-in is super common(and often unintentional or unavoidable), but it goes against the ideal of equal opportunity and competitive markets that rewards companies for a continuous commitment to quality and innovation. I feel that cra…

The reason why Craigslist is valuable is because of it's large network. It is obvious that smaller sites like PadMapper want to slowly try and chip away at Craiglist content (see PadLister) after they hopefully gain enough traction to supplant them. Padmapper / Padlister are fine to start their own sites and have users come and post their listings there, but not to copy content from Craigslist after they specifically asked them to stop.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#195

Post by dangrossman »

invisible wrote: post #175
waterlesscloud wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. Have the users provided a license to PadMapper? Where is this license agreement? How is it made?

Google also indexes this data. Craigslist obviously doesn't own this data as they have DMCA practices in place. They can't claim DMCA and also say that the data is their data.

Read Craigslist's TOS. The copyright remains with the listing author, but they sign over rights to enforce that copyright to Craigslist.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#196

Post by RandallBrown »

robomartin wrote: post #87

Here are a couple of legal questions (not taking sides, just honest questions): Does the data belong to Craigslist or to those posting on Craigslist? If so, is this in their TOS? I don't remember ever clicking a checkbox that says "we own your listing" whenever I have sold stuff on Craigslist or posted jobs/gigs. Maybe real estate is different. Why would I want to give Craigslist ownership of my listing? If I were po…

I'm fairly sure that craigslist does NOT own the data, the person posting the listing does. The article mentions this.

That's what makes this a little less open and shut, at least to me.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#197

Post by rdl »

debacle wrote: post #32

> The lawsuit raises questions about who should be able to use the vast amount of user-created data hosted on a site like Craigslist. No, it really doesn't. This isn't going to be a long, exciting case challenging the underpinnings of copyright law and server terms of services. Padmapper isn't that company.

3taps, however, is.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#199

Post by unavoidable »

nostromo wrote: post #60

Commenters here make this sound like an open and shut case in favor of Craigslist. IANAL, so could someone explain why Google's index of material covered by copyright is ok and PadMapper's is not?

[Law student here, but I don't know the full details of the claim CL is making]

The case doesn't actually seem open and shut at all. CL seems to have a "moral high ground" in that they provide the original service and the platform for users to post information, but the legal ground is more shaky. It is relatively settled in copyright law (which appears to be the main thrust of CL's argument) that effort alone does not award copyright protection[1] (or indeed, any property rights in general[2]).

For example, phone listings are not copyrightable, nor is news. The general question is whether there was creative expression (which can include 'creative' presentation or organization). If I were Padmapper, I would argue that classified listings are just a collection of facts, in which case they are not copyrightable. Padmapper does not actually use the listings directly, but extracts the information and puts it in a different format (their interface). On this point I think their case is relatively strong.

Where CL might be able to make a better case is their TOU. The TOU forms a contract between CL and their users. In almost all such prominent cases, this type of contract has been found to be enforceable[3]. If this line of reasoning is followed, then Padmapper will probably lose on this point because they agreed not to "copy, aggregate, distribute", etc.[4]

If this is a contractual claim the damages would be what CL could have expected if Padmapper had not 'breached' the contract - in this case I'm not sure that amount is particularly large, because Padmapper redirects to CL's site for the actual listings.

TLDR: copyright claim seems weak, but the contractual claim might succeed. The trademark stuff seems like a red herring and is CL throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

[EDIT: see below, I overlooked the fact that Padmapper is no longer using CL data directly, so they might not be bound by the TOU at all. Same goes for 3Taps since they use Google's cache. Looking stronger for Padmapper]

[1] Feist v. Rural, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural

[2] INS v. AP, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_News_Service_v._A...

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap

[4] CL Terms of Use (see section 3), http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use

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