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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#441

Post by surgical_fire »

bbor wrote: post #413
timeon wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US and could get DeepSeek banned in western countries for copyright If US is going to proceed with trade war on EU, as it was planning anyway, then DeepSeek will be banned only in US. Seems like term "western countries" is slowly eroding.

Great point. Plus, the revival of serious talk of the Monroe Doctrine (!!!) in the U.S. government lends a possibly completely-new meaning to "western countries" -- i.e. the Americas...

Except the US has only contempt for anything south of Texas. Perhaps "western countries" will be reduced to US and Canada.

Many countries in Latin America have better relations and more robust trade partnerships with China.

As for the EU, I think it will be great for it to shed its reliance on the US, and act more independently from it.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#442

Post by weego »

thorum wrote: post #125

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.” The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their…

Boy who stole test papers complains about child copying his answers.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#443

Post by joe_the_user »

thorum wrote: post #125

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.” The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their…

The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their work, and get more credit because they actually publish the research

I claim one just can't put the humor/hypocrisy aside that easily.

What OpenAI did with the release of ChatGPT is productize research that was open and ongoing with Deepmind and other leading at least as much. And everything after that was an extension of the basic approach - improved, expanded but ultimately the same sort of beast. One might even say the situation of OpenAI to DeepMind was like Apple to Xerox. Productizing is nothing to sneeze at - it requires creativity and work to productize basic research. But naturally get end-users who consider the productizers the "fountain heads", who overestimate the productizers because products are all they see.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#445

Post by [deleted] »

bhouston wrote: post #23

The US government likely will favor a large strategic company like OpenAI instead of individual's copyrights, so while ironic, the US government definitely doesn't care. And the US government is also likely itching to reduce the power of Chinese AI companies that could out compete US rivals (similar to the treatment of BYD, TikTok, solar panel manufacturers, network equipment manufacturers, etc), so expect sweeping l…

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#446

Post by bangaladore »

blast wrote: post #374

Everyone is responding to the intellectual property issue, but isn't that the less interesting point? If Deepseek trained off OpenAI, then it wasn't trained from scratch for "pennies on the dollar" and isn't the Sputnik-like technical breakthrough that we've been hearing so much about. That's the news here. Or rather, the potential news, since we don't know if it's true yet.

That's only true if you assume that O1 synthetic data sets are much better than any other (comparably sized) opensource model.

It's not apparently obvious to me that that is the case.

Ie. do you need a SOTA model to produce a new SOTA model?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#447

Post by dragonwriter »

Hey, OpenAI, so, you know that legal theory that is the entire basis of your argument that any of your products are legal? "Training AI on proprietary data is a use that doesn't require permission from the owner of the data"?

You might want to consider how it applies to this situation.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#448

Post by bangaladore »

smitelli wrote: post #404
tensor wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not correct. First of all, training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea because you'll end up with a strictly less accurate model (usually). But secondly, and more to your point, even if you were to use training data from another model, YOU STILL NEED TO DO ALL THE TRAINING. Using data from another model won't save you any training time.

> training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea Ah. So if I understand this... once the internet becomes completely overrun with AI-generated articles of no particular substance or importance, we should not bulk-scrape that internet again to train the subsequent generation of models. I look forward to that day.

That's already happened. Its well established now that the internet is tainted. After essentially ChatGPT's public release, a non-insignificant amount of internet content is not written by humans.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#449

Post by LPisGood »

dragonwriter wrote: post #424
tensor wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not correct. First of all, training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea because you'll end up with a strictly less accurate model (usually). But secondly, and more to your point, even if you were to use training data from another model, YOU STILL NEED TO DO ALL THE TRAINING. Using data from another model won't save you any training time.

> training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea It's...not, and its repeatedly been proven in practice that this is an invalid generalization because it is missing necessary qualifications, and its funny that this myth keeps persisting. It's probably a bad idea to use uncurated output from another AI to train a model if you are trying to make a better model rather than a distillation of the fir…

It is, of course not going to produce a “child” model that more accurately predicts the underlying true distribution that the “parent” model was trying to. That is, it will not add anything new.

This is immediately obvious if you look at it through a statistical learning lens and not the mysticism crystal ball that many view NN’s through.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#450

Post by ickelbawd »

Austiiiiii wrote: post #217
InkCanon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my understanding, OpenAI won the case where it argued training was covered under fair use and did not infringe on copyright.

Is there any reason they wouldn't rule the same way on DeepSeek training on OpenAI data? After all, one of the big selling points of GPT has been that businesses can freely use the information provided. They're paying for the service, after all. I'd very be interested to know how DeepSeek's usage (very reasonably assuming that they paid for their OpenAI subscription) is any different.

Businesses can’t freely use the information. There are terms of service freely agreed upon by the user which explicitly deny many use cases—training other models is just one. DeepSeek is not an American company nor is their leader in deep with the new administration. It seems far more likely that this will play out like tiktok—they’ll be attacked publicly and banned for national security reasons.
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