AI models are becoming like perpetual stew.
OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
411–420 of 1001 posts
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#412This is hilarious.
Everybody has evidence OpenAI scraped the internet at a global scale and used terabytes of data it didn't pay for. Newspapers, books, etc...
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#413I'm not being sarcastic, but we may soon have to torrent DeepSeek's model. OpenAI has a lot of clout in the US and could get DeepSeek banned in western countries for copyright.
> US and could get DeepSeek banned in western countries for copyright If US is going to proceed with trade war on EU, as it was planning anyway, then DeepSeek will be banned only in US. Seems like term "western countries" is slowly eroding.
Great point. Plus, the revival of serious talk of the Monroe Doctrine (!!!) in the U.S. government lends a possibly completely-new meaning to "western countries" -- i.e. the Americas...
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#414All the top level comments are basking in the irony of it, which is fair enough. But I think this changes the Deepseek narrative a bit. If they just benefited from repurposing OpenAI data, that's different than having achieved an engineering breakthrough, which may suggest OpenAI's results were hard earned after all.
Of course. How else would Americans justify their superiority (and therefore valuations) if a load of foreigners for Christ's sake could just out innovate them? They had to be cheating.
Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
p.s. yes, that goes both ways - that is, if people are slamming a different country from an opposite direction, we say the same thing (provided we see the post in the first place)
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#415Everyone is responding to the intellectual property issue, but isn't that the less interesting point? If Deepseek trained off OpenAI, then it wasn't trained from scratch for "pennies on the dollar" and isn't the Sputnik-like technical breakthrough that we've been hearing so much about. That's the news here. Or rather, the potential news, since we don't know if it's true yet.
There’s a question of scale here: was it trained on 1000 outputs or 5 million?
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#416And they used all copyrighted data on the internet. If they wanna sue, they set a dangerous precedent.
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not correct. First of all, training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea because you'll end up with a strictly less accurate model (usually). But secondly, and more to your point, even if you were to use training data from another model, YOU STILL NEED TO DO ALL THE TRAINING. Using data from another model won't save you any training time.
I think you're missing the point being made here, IMHO: using an advanced model to build high quality training data (whatever that means for a given training paradigm) absolutely would increase the efficiency of the process. Remember that they're not fighting over sounding human, they're fighting over deliberative reasoning capabilities, something that's relatively rare in online discourse. Re: "generally a bad idea"…
It's trivial to build synthetic reasoning datasets, likely even in natural languages. This is a well established technique that works (e.g. see Microsoft Phi, among others).
I said generally because there are things like adversarial training that use a ruleset to help generate correct datasets that work well. Outside of techniques like that it's not just a rule of thumb, it's always true that training on the output of another model will result in a worse model.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-generated-data...
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#418Earlier quoted context omitted.
The railroads drama ended when JP Morgan (the person, not yet the entity) brought all the railroad bosses together, said "you all answer to me because I represent your investors / shareholders", and forced a wave of consolidation and syndicates because competition was bad for business. Then all the farmers in the midwest went broke not because they couldn't get their goods to market, but because JP Morgan's consolida…
> Consolidation and monopoly over your competition is always the end goal. Surely that's only possible when you have a large barrier to entry? What's going to be that barrier in this case - cos it turns out not to be neither training costs/hardware or secret expertise.
The large syndicate will create the barriers. Either via laws, or if that fails violence.
Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#419Everyone is responding to the intellectual property issue, but isn't that the less interesting point? If Deepseek trained off OpenAI, then it wasn't trained from scratch for "pennies on the dollar" and isn't the Sputnik-like technical breakthrough that we've been hearing so much about. That's the news here. Or rather, the potential news, since we don't know if it's true yet.
That's not correct. First of all, training off of data generated by another AI is generally a bad idea because you'll end up with a strictly less accurate model (usually). But secondly, and more to your point, even if you were to use training data from another model, YOU STILL NEED TO DO ALL THE TRAINING. Using data from another model won't save you any training time.
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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor
#420This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail. AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and adv…
The railroads drama ended when JP Morgan (the person, not yet the entity) brought all the railroad bosses together, said "you all answer to me because I represent your investors / shareholders", and forced a wave of consolidation and syndicates because competition was bad for business. Then all the farmers in the midwest went broke not because they couldn't get their goods to market, but because JP Morgan's consolida…
Which is the exact goal of the current wave of Tech oligarchy also.