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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

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Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#111

Post by rm445 »

robomartin wrote: post #87

Here are a couple of legal questions (not taking sides, just honest questions): Does the data belong to Craigslist or to those posting on Craigslist? If so, is this in their TOS? I don't remember ever clicking a checkbox that says "we own your listing" whenever I have sold stuff on Craigslist or posted jobs/gigs. Maybe real estate is different. Why would I want to give Craigslist ownership of my listing? If I were po…

Last time this was discussed, people posted excerpts from Craigslist's terms, in which the user grants Craigslist the right to (i) Use their post, (ii) defend against others copying it.

So, I haven't verified it, but the idea seems to be the user owns their post, and could post it elsewhere if they wanted - but Craigslist has the right to stop other sites copying posts direct from Craigslist.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#112

Post by eli »

Kadrith wrote: post #96
wickedchicken wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this from the opposite viewpoint, that PadMapper is operating as a search engine designed to help you find the right Craigslist posts for your apartment hunt. Claiming that PadMapper's success is from Craigslist failing to 'provide a good UI' is like suggesting that Google News' success is because newspaper companies failed to provide good article SEO. Instead, it's a different modality of content discovery, an…

Does PadMapper respect the robots.txt file?

I thought it was weird that CL didn't add a Disallow line for padmapper to robots.txt from the start (just from a PR perspective).

But robots.txt has no special legal authority, it's just a convention used to communicate a publisher's intent. I'm pretty sure the C&D letter made it 100% clear that CL did not want Padmapper crawling their site or using their data.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#113

Post by hardtke »

eli wrote: post #91
wickedchicken wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this from the opposite viewpoint, that PadMapper is operating as a search engine designed to help you find the right Craigslist posts for your apartment hunt. Claiming that PadMapper's success is from Craigslist failing to 'provide a good UI' is like suggesting that Google News' success is because newspaper companies failed to provide good article SEO. Instead, it's a different modality of content discovery, an…

I don't think this has any legal bearing for anyone, but it's worth noting that Google respects publishers who do not wish to be indexed.

Here's the abstract for a nice review of search engine law: http://works.bepress.com/james_grimmelmann/13/ If I remember correctly, indexing a site that asks to not be indexed might be illegal as an illegal tresspass, but it is not settled law. The argument is that you are stealing resources (computer time) from the site owner.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#114

Post by intended »

Apreche wrote: post #97

If what 3Taps is doing is illegal, then what Google is doing is illegal. It's a search engine.

If you send google a c and d, they will comply.

Pad mapper was sent a c&d and decided to not comply. Hence the case.

Edit: and as has been pointed out, google isn't competing with Craig's list.

Padmapper's gameplan is to disintermediate Craigslist away.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#115

Post by bencpeters »

rprasad wrote: post #59
jblock wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Craigslist is one of the poorest user experiences around and succeeds only because people insist on using it." If a lot of people INSIST on using it, then that means it has good UX. Complaints with their UX should be qualified.

Craiglist has a great UX for a classifieds board: location > type of listing > listings by date. It may look butt ugly, but it is as close to a functionally efficient classifieds board as you can get. Craigslist isn't trying to be anything more than that.

For many classified ads, this is true. However, for most people "location" being defined on a city-wide (or for some rural areas) state-wide basis is nowhere near an effective location filter for apartment/housing. Most people I know have a fairly short list of neighborhoods/locations that they want to live, and it's a huge pain to find those postings in craigslist's interface.

This doesn't mean that PadMapper is right, from a legal standpoint, but I think it's fair to say that craigslist's UX is terrible, for apartment/house searches (where small variations in location matter a LOT) at least.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#116

Post by praxulus »

jetti wrote: post #67
praxulus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we're also a community of apartment seekers, and Padmapper makes Craigslist's data many times more useful. It's fine if Craigslist wants us to use their mapping service, but it doesn't exist yet . It's a purely selfish argument, but shutting down Padmapper does nothing but make our lives more difficult.

That is hardly shutting down Padmapper. It is just a roadblock and they would have to find another source of data. It has been clear for many years that Craigslist doesn't want their site scraped, so building a business that is so dependent that it would close if they lost that source the business would be ruined is extremely short sighted. Edit: finished my thought that I left out mid-sentence.

The vast majority of useful data (for the areas that I have looked for apartments, at least) comes from Craigslist. When Padmapper can't use that data, I can't use Padmapper. I'm not talking about the legal, or even ethical aspects of the situation, just the practical ones.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#117

Post by MnkyPwz »

In my mind this article, and moreover the lawsuit itself, may be a glimpse into what might be a revolutionary revamp of Craigslist and it's community.

Its no secret that the CL community have frequently requested an update to the UI as well as many additional features to be added in order to make using the site much more friendly; although with no changes being implemented at this point. I look at this litigation as a foreshadowing of what may be in store for the CL community.

With that said, shutting off access of those parties utilizing their services without proper consent may be the first in a strategic battle plan for the CL team in order to ensure they have the most optimal acceptance of their revamp.

Anyone else see it this way, or am I indulging wishful thinking?

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#118

Post by bluesnowmonkey »

debacle wrote: post #76
nostromo wrote: post #60

Commenters here make this sound like an open and shut case in favor of Craigslist. IANAL, so could someone explain why Google's index of material covered by copyright is ok and PadMapper's is not?

Because if you ask Google to remove you from their index, they will. Rupert Murdoch has threatened this in the past. Each time he's backed down, because he knows that being removed from Google's index is akin to being removed from the Internet.

Craigslist doesn't needs to be removed from the search index. They just need to prevent caching of posts, which is what 3Taps was abusing. Noarchive in robots.txt ought to take care of that.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#119

Post by IanDrake »

Maascamp wrote: post #43

The tone in this article is unbelievable. > The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data There is no question. Craigslist isn't stopping Padmapper from being built, its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data . The continuous attempts to reframe Craigslist's actions as an attempt to stifle innovation seem almost surreal. I just can't understand how a com…

> its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data

Is it Craigslist's data? Does Craigslist own the posts that caused women to be murdered and stolen property to be sold? If they own that data, then they must be culpable (to some degree) for these bad acts.

If they own it, they are now more than just a service provider (IMO) and can no longer be protected by the DCA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#120

Post by kytmizuno »

chimi wrote: post #37
cwp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Padmapper doesn't steal IP.

It's pretty clear that Padmapper is making use of the craigslist posts without the rights to do so, which is defined by Merriam-Webster as "stealing". STEALING transitive verb 1a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stealing If you're going to downvote me, that's fine, but if you do, please show how copyright infrin…

Does craigslist actually own the copyrights to user generate text and images?
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