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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#241

Post by [deleted] »

throwup238 wrote: post #94
marricks wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DeepSeek is allegedly... better? So saying they just copied ClosedAI isn't really sufficient of an answer. Seems to be just bluster because the US Govt would probably accept any excuse to ban it, see TikTok.

It’s not better. In most of my tests (C++/QT code) it just runs out of context before it can really do anything. And the output is very bad - it mashes together the header and cpp file. The reasoning output is fun to look at and occasionally useful though. The max token output is only 8K (32K thinking tokens). O1 is 128k, which is far more useful, and it doesn’t get stuck like R1 does. The hype around the DeepSeek re…

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#242

Post by mjburgess »

daft_pink wrote: post #177

This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail. AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and adv…

For the curious, it was vertical integration in the railroad-oil/-coal industry which is where the money was made.

The problem for AI is the hardware is commodified and offers no natural monopoly, so there isn't really anything obvious to vertically integrate-towards-monopoly.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#243

Post by okdood64 »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Not to mention the total dodge when Murati was asked about training on the YouTube corpus during that television interview.

Sorry for the Short: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M0QyOp7zqcY

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#244

Post by mjburgess »

bhouston wrote: post #205
derektank wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US government likely will favor a large strategic company like OpenAI instead of individual's copyrights Even if we assume this is true, Disney and Netflix are both currently worth more than OpenAI and both rely on the strict enforcement of US copyright law. I do not think it is so obvious which powers that be have the better lobbying efforts and, currently, it's looking like this question will mostly be adjudic…

I don't think OpenAI stole from Disney or Netflix. Rather OpenAI stole from individual artists and YouTube and other social media who users do not really have any lobbying power. So I think OpenAI, Disney and Netflix win together. Big companies tend to win.

> What are the first words of the disney movie, "Aladdin" ?

The first words of Disney's Aladdin (1992) are spoken by the *Peddler*, the mysterious merchant at the beginning of the film. He says:

"Ah, Salaam and good evening to you, worthy friend. Please, please, come closer..."

He then continues with: "Too close! A little too close. There. Welcome to Agrabah. City of mystery, of enchantment, and the finest merchandise this side of the River Jordan, on sale today! Come on down!"

This opening sets the stage for the story, introducing the magical and bustling world of Agrabah.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#245

Post by fullshark »

mjburgess wrote: post #242
daft_pink wrote: post #177

This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail. AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and adv…

For the curious, it was vertical integration in the railroad-oil/-coal industry which is where the money was made. The problem for AI is the hardware is commodified and offers no natural monopoly, so there isn't really anything obvious to vertically integrate-towards-monopoly.

Aren’t we approaching a scenario where the software is commodified (or at least “good enough” software) and the hardware isn’t (NVIDIA GPUs have defined advantages)

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#246

Post by floatrock »

daft_pink wrote: post #177

This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail. AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and adv…

The railroads drama ended when JP Morgan (the person, not yet the entity) brought all the railroad bosses together, said "you all answer to me because I represent your investors / shareholders", and forced a wave of consolidation and syndicates because competition was bad for business.

Then all the farmers in the midwest went broke not because they couldn't get their goods to market, but because JP Morgan's consolidated syndicates ate all their margin hauling their goods to market.

Consolidation and monopoly over your competition is always the end goal.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#247

Post by ryanobjc »

scotty79 wrote: post #209
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

"That's hilarious!" was my first reaction as well, when I heard about it the first time. When I came to HN and saw this story on top I was hoping this was the top comment. I was not disappointed. US AI folk were leading for two years by just throwing more and more compute at the same thing that Google threw them like a bone years ago (namely transformers). They made next to no innovation in any area other than how to…

It’s not often you get 100x optimization with some small improvements so I’m kind of skeptical.

We have and apples and oranges thing here which deepseek is intentionally leaning into. They get very cheap electricity and are bragging about their cheap cost, and OpenAI etc typically brag about how expensive their training is. But it’s all pr and lies.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#248

Post by scotty79 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #57
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically this should be good for OpenAI - in that they can reduce their costs by ~27x and pass that along to end users to get more adoption and more profit.

No; those costs were their moat.

Maybe they even suppressed algorithmic improvements in their company to preserve moat. Something akin to Kodak suppressing internal research on digital cameras because they were world leading company that produced photo film.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#249

Post by scarface_74 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38
whatshisface wrote: post #19

It's reasonably likely that a lot of people linked to the federal government want to ban DeepSeek. You can tell it's being presented away from "they gave us a free set of weights" and towards "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.)

> "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.) The value was highly speculative, an illusion created by PR and sentiment momentum. "Hype value" not real value (unless you're able to realize it and dump those bags on someone else before fundamentals set in). Same thing happening with power companies…

The two podcasters who do the Acquired podcast spoke to Ballmer about some of Microsoft’s failed initiatives and acquisitions. He told them that at the end of the day “it’s only money”.

All of the BigTech companies have enough cash flow from profitable lines of business to make speculative bets.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#250

Post by mjburgess »

spencerflem wrote: post #162
thorum wrote: post #125

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.” The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their…

Fortunately, OpenAI doesn't need to make money because they are a nonprofit dedicated to the safe and transparent advancement of AI for all of humanity

...somewhere a yacht salesman cried out in terror
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