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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#71

Post by mritchie712 »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

openai should pay creators, but:

1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it

2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI

are not the same thing.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#72

Post by aprilthird2021 »

whatshisface wrote: post #19

It's reasonably likely that a lot of people linked to the federal government want to ban DeepSeek. You can tell it's being presented away from "they gave us a free set of weights" and towards "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.)

Banning it will not bring back the value

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#73

Post by sho_hn »

bbqfog wrote: post #59
sho_hn wrote: post #49

While I'm as amused as everyone else - I think it's technically accurate to point out that the "we trained it for $6 mio" narrative is contingent on the done investment by others.

OpenAI's models were also trained on billions of dollars of "free" labor that produced the content that it was trained on.

Oh, absolutely. I'm not defending OpenAI, I just care about accurate reporting. Even on HN - even in this thread - you see people who came away with the conclusion that DeepSeek did something while "cutting cost by 27x".

But that's a bit like saying that by painting a a bare wall green you have demonstrated that you can build green walls 27x cheaper, ignoring the cost of building the wall in the first place.

Smarter reporting and discourse would explain how this iterative process actually works and who is building on who and how, not frame it as two competing from-scratch clean room efforts. It'd help clear up expectations of what's coming next.

It's a bit similar to how many are saying DeepSeek have demonstrated independence from nVidia, when part of the clever thing they did was figure out how to make the intentionally gimped H800s work for their training runs by doing low-level optimizations that are more nVidia-specific, etc.

Rarely have I seen a highly technical topic see produce more uninformed snap takes than this week.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#74

Post by pilooch »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Any ML based service with an API is basically a dataset builder for more ML. This has been known forever and is actually a useful "law" of ML-based systems.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#75

Post by cjbgkagh »

ceejayoz wrote: post #57
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically this should be good for OpenAI - in that they can reduce their costs by ~27x and pass that along to end users to get more adoption and more profit.

No; those costs were their moat.

But have you heard of Jevons Paradon…… /s

OMG, it seems tech has been invaded by baaing crypto bros

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#77

Post by Drakim »

beAbU wrote: post #66
marricks wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DeepSeek is allegedly... better? So saying they just copied ClosedAI isn't really sufficient of an answer. Seems to be just bluster because the US Govt would probably accept any excuse to ban it, see TikTok.

How can they ban something thats open source that you can just run on your own hardware?

They banned certain branches of math during the cold war, it can be done.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#79

Post by zbshqoa »

mritchie712 wrote: post #71
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

openai should pay creators, but: 1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI are not the same thing.

Number 2 is already possible with open models. You can do distillation using Llama, which could likely be doing #1 to build their models (I'm not sure it's the case though)
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