Craigslist Suing Padmapper • Hacker News Board

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#41

Post by mikegirouard » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 4:59 PM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #10

Here's a nugget from the article which I didn't hear anything about in the previous Padmapper postings and chat here on HN: "The company said it offered a license that would have allowed PadMapper to use its data on mobile applications but that the competitor did not accept the terms."

That caught me as soon as I read it too. I didn't recall that part mentioned earlier.

From the original: > They allow mobile apps to display their listings if you buy a license from them, but not websites.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#42

Post by astrodust » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 4:59 PM UTC

jblock wrote: post #28

astrodust wrote: post #2

When you can't beat them, sue them into the ground. Craigslist is one of the poorest user experiences around and succeeds only because people insist on using it. The alternatives somehow manage to be even more spectacularly useless by over-designing their apps and cluttering them up with junk. Padmapper is one of the few that does what they're supposed to do, and it's not even an optimal implementation of this sort o…

"Craigslist is one of the poorest user experiences around and succeeds only because people insist on using it." If a lot of people INSIST on using it, then that means it has good UX. Complaints with their UX should be qualified.

People insist on using it not because it has a good user experience, but because of content. It has a terrible user experience. Don't confuse the two things.

For instance, many payroll companies have truly awful sites, yet people use them since they have no other choice.

As a specific example, searching for an apartment should not mean reading every single listing in order to discern where the property is, what features are available, and what conditions apply. That people post the same listing repeatedly until it is rented is not helping matters.

eBay, which is arguably still quite primitive, has much better filtering options, alerts, and a single listing that persists until the auction is completed. Craiglist is a series of random, repetitive posts with only a minimum of categorization.

Padmapper provided a superior way to navigate listing data and present it in a much more meaningful presentation. Being able to "favorite" listings helps when filtering.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#43

Post by Maascamp » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 4:59 PM UTC

The tone in this article is unbelievable.

>The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data

There is no question. Craigslist isn't stopping Padmapper from being built, its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data. The continuous attempts to reframe Craigslist's actions as an attempt to stifle innovation seem almost surreal. I just can't understand how a community of professionals could support Padmapper in this.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#44

Post by jonny_eh » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 5:00 PM UTC

"unlawfully and unabashedly mass-harvesting and redistributing postings entrusted by craigslist users to their local craigslist sites"

Boo on Craigslist! They claim that they're protecting their users, but what harm is padmapper causing to people listing properties on Craigslist? Getting them more potential renters?

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#45

Post by rprasad » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 5:00 PM UTC

_sentient wrote: post #30

Just because you don't like the interface, does not give you license to steal their data. I think HN is fairly ugly, but that doesn't mean I have a right to scrape the site in order to reproduce a slightly better looking, for-profit clone. At least not without PG's express permission. Yahoo search would be a hell of a lot better if they could just scrape results from Google, but thankfully they lack the misguided sen…

You actually do under the HN terms of use, which are permissive in the licenses they grant regarding HN posts. For example, see HN Magazine and various other HN-based sites and services.

But as you note, the important thing here is the "license." Craigslist offers paid licenses to app develoeprs, which PadMapper chose not to pay for.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#46

Post by astrodust » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 5:01 PM UTC

debacle wrote: post #40

astrodust wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only succeeds because it has a historical legacy that's proving difficult to displace. This is the same thing driving eBay. It's a difficult nut to crack. Kajiji seems to be gaining some traction, but it's trading one set of UX nightmares for another.

Kajiji is owned by eBay.

I would've guessed Yahoo! by the amount of visual clutter they've created.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#47

Post by jcurbo » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 5:01 PM UTC

Killswitch wrote: post #19

I'm very interested in the outcome of this as I am building a service similar to Padmapper in the sense that it uses data from other sources to make a better user experience for people, and I'd love to include Craigslist (Would be a big supplier of data for my users), but I don't want to deal with these types of things so I have been leaving it out.

I think the key thing here is that you have to talk to your data sources. You have to use their data source the way they want you to, or come to some sort of agreement (licensing or somesuch), else you are moving into the same legal territory Padmapper was in and risk getting sued.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#48

Post by jonny_eh » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 5:01 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #13

ori_b wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Craigslist is one of the poorest user experiences around and succeeds only because people insist on using it. So, to paraphrase, it only succeeds because something about it attracts customers. As opposed to other sites, which succeed by fairy dust and rainbows. If padmapper has a great user experience, that's wonderful -- They should be able to get customers to post their listings on it, and generate data without r…

It only succeeds because it has a historical legacy that's proving difficult to displace. This is the same thing driving eBay. It's a difficult nut to crack. Kajiji seems to be gaining some traction, but it's trading one set of UX nightmares for another.

It's http://kijiji.com (looks to be ebayized now). Although in Canada, http://kijiji.ca is more popular than Craigslist.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#49

Post by astrodust » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 5:03 PM UTC

gfosco wrote: post #8

diminoten wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in an attempt to unseat Craigslist. Unseat Craigslist as the undisputed champion of what, exactly? Cartographical apartment hunting?

They are the champion of free listings, and built a huge user base around their dead simple platform.

I'd describe them more as the tyrant of free listings.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#50

Post by mikegirouard » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 5:04 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #38

avolcano wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a Wired article, circa 2009 (so this may be out of date): "Craigslist is not only gigantic in scale and totally resistant to business cooperation, it is also mostly free. The only things that cost money to post on the site are job ads in some cities ($25 to $75), apartment listings by brokers in New York ($10), and—in a special case born of recent legal trouble—advertisements in categories commonly used by prost…

I'm guessing that PadMapper said no to paying for API access, for some reason. Though to be honest that makes no sense, because that's exactly what they're getting from the third party site, and they're paying for that...

AFAIK, there is only a license available for mobile apps. Not websites.