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The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

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Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#381

I'm curious if someone more informed than me can comment on this part: > Besides things like the rise of humanoid robots, which I suspect is going to take most people by surprise when they are rapidly able to perform a huge number of tasks that currently require an unskilled (or even skilled) human worker (e.g., doing laundry ... I've always said that the real test for humanoid AI is folding laundry, because it's an…

2 months ago, Boston Dynamics' Atlas was barely able to put solid objects in open cubbies. [1] Folding, hanging, and dresser drawer operation appears to be a few years out still.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7IPm7f1vI

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#382
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If demand for AI chips will increase due to Jevon’s paradox, why would Nvidia’s chips become cheaper? In the long run, yes, they will be cheaper due to more competition and better tech. But next month? It will be more expensive.

The usage of existing but cheaper nvidia chips to make models of similar quality is the main takeaway. It'll be much harder to convince people to buy the latest and greatest with this out there.

  The usage of existing but cheaper nvidia chips to make models of similar quality is the main takeaway.
So why not buy a more expensive Nvidia chip to run a better model?

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#383

I'm curious if someone more informed than me can comment on this part: > Besides things like the rise of humanoid robots, which I suspect is going to take most people by surprise when they are rapidly able to perform a huge number of tasks that currently require an unskilled (or even skilled) human worker (e.g., doing laundry ... I've always said that the real test for humanoid AI is folding laundry, because it's an…

https://physicalintelligence.company is working on this – see a demo where their robot does ~exactly what you said, I believe based on a "generalist" model (not pretrained on the tasks): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-UTyb7lOEw

There are so many cuts in that 1 minute video, Jesus Christ. You'd think it was produced for TikTok.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I’ve been harping on this. DeepSeek is bullish for Nvidia.

>DeepSeek is bullish for Nvidia. DeepSeek is bullish for the semiconductor industry as a whole. Whether it is for Nvidia remains to be seen. Intel was in Nvidia position in 2007 and they didn't want to trade margins for volumes in the phone market. And there they are today.

Why wouldn't it be for Nvidia? Explain more.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t your point about video compression tech support Nvidia’s bull case? Better video compression led to an explosion in video consumption on the Internet, leading to much more revenue for companies like Comcast, Google, T-Mobile, Verizon, etc. More efficient LLMs lead to much more AI usage. Nvidia, TSMC, etc will benefit.

No - because this eliminates entirely or shifts the majority of work from GPU to CPU - and Nvidia does not sell CPUs. If the AI market gets 10x bigger, and GPU work gets 50% smaller (which is still 5x larger than today) - but Nvidia is priced on 40% growth for the next ten years (28x larger) - there is a price mismatch. It is theoretically possible for a massive reduction in GPU usage or shift from GPU to CPU to bene…

  No - because this eliminates entirely or shifts the majority of work from GPU to CPU - and Nvidia does not sell CPUs.
I'm not even sure how to reply to this. GPUs are fundamentally much more efficient for AI inference than CPUs.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love algorithms as much the next guy, but not really. DCT was developed in 1972 and has a compression ratio of 100:1. H.264 compresses 2000:1. And standard resolution (480p) is ~1/30th the resolution of 4k. --- I.e. Standard resolution with DCT is smaller than 4k with H.264. Even high-definition (720p) with DCT is only twice the bandwidth of 4k H.264. Modern compression has allowed us to add a bunch more pixels, bu…

DCT is not an algorithm at all, it’s a mathematical transform. It doesn’t have a compression ratio.

> DCT compression, also known as block compression, compresses data in sets of discrete DCT blocks.[3] DCT blocks sizes including 8x8 pixels for the standard DCT, and varied integer DCT sizes between 4x4 and 32x32 pixels.[1][4] The DCT has a strong energy compaction property,[5][6] capable of achieving high quality at high data compression ratios.[7][8] However, blocky compression artifacts can appear when heavy DCT compression is applied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_cosine_transform

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because at some point, someone decided that 8 kbps makes for an acceptable audio stream per subscriber. And at first, the novelty of being able to call anyone anywhere, even with this awful quality, was novel enough that people would accept it. And most people did until the carriers decided they could allocate a little more with VoLTE, if it works on your phone in your area.

> Because at some point, someone decided that 8 kbps makes for an acceptable audio stream per subscriber. Has it not been like this for a very long time? I was under the impression that "voice frequency" being defined as up to 4 kHz was a very old standard - after all, (long-distance) phone calls have always been multiplexed through coaxial or microwave links. And it follows that 8kbps is all you need to losslessly d…

Sure, if you stop after "nobody's vocal coords make noises above 4khz in normal conversation", but the rumbling of the vocal coords isn't the entire audio data which is present in-person. Clicks of the tongue and smacking of the lips make much higher frequencies, and higher sample rates capture the timbre/shape of the soundwave instead of rounding it down to a smooth sine wave. Discord defaults to 64kbps, but you can push it up to 96kbps or 128kbps with nitro membership, and it's not hard to hear an improvement with the higher bitrates. And if you've ever used bluetooth audio, you know the difference in quality between the bidirectional call profile, and the unidirectional music profile, and wished to have the bandwidth of the music profile with the low latency of the call profile.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#388
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usage of existing but cheaper nvidia chips to make models of similar quality is the main takeaway. It'll be much harder to convince people to buy the latest and greatest with this out there.

The usage of existing but cheaper nvidia chips to make models of similar quality is the main takeaway. So why not buy a more expensive Nvidia chip to run a better model?

Is there still evidence that more compute = better model?

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#389

Great article. > Now, you still want to train the best model you can by cleverly leveraging as much compute as you can and as many trillion tokens of high quality training data as possible, but that's just the beginning of the story in this new world; now, you could easily use incredibly huge amounts of compute just to do inference from these models at a very high level of confidence or when trying to solve extremely…

> NVIDIAs moat Offtopic, but your comment finally pushed me over the edge to semantic satiation [1] regarding the word "moat". It is incredible how this word turned up a short while ago and now it seems to be a key ingredient of every second comment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#390
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly a lot of the math and physics people in the ML community are considered "grumpy researchers." A joke apparent with this starter pack[0]. From my personal experience (undergrad physics, worked as engineer, came to CS & ML because I liked the math), there's a lot of pushback. - I've been told that the math doesn't matter/you don't need math. - I've heard very prominent researchers say "fuck theorists" - I…

Is this in academia? Arguably, the emergence of quant hedge funds and private AI research companies is at least as much a symptom of the dysfunctions of academia (and society's compensation of academics on dimensions monetary and beyond) as it is of the ability of Wall Street and Silicon Valley to treat former scientists better than that.

  > Is this in academia?
Yes and no. Industry AI research is currently tightly coupled with academic research. Most of the big papers you see are either directly from the big labs or in partnership. Not even labs like Stanford have sufficient compute to train GPT from scratch (maybe enough for DeepSeek). Here's Fei-Fei Li discussing the issue. Stanford has something like 300 GPUs[1]? And those have to be split across labs.

The thing is that there's always a pipeline. Academic does most of the low level research, say TRL[2] 1-4, partnerships happen between 4-6, and industry takes over the rest. (with some wiggleroom on these numbers). Much of ML academic research right now is tuning large models, made by big labs. This isn't low TRL. Additionally, a lot of research is rejected for not out-performing technologies that are already at TRL 5-7. See Mamba for a recent example. You could also point to KANs, which are probably around TRL 3.

  > Arguably, the emergence of quant hedge funds and private AI research companies is at least as much a symptom of the dysfunctions of academia
Which is where I, again, both agree and disagree. It is not _just_ a symptom of the dysfunction of academia, but _also_ industry. The reason I pointed out the grumpy researchers is because a lot of these people have been discussing techniques that DeepSeek used, long before they were used. DeepSeek looks like what happens when you set these people free. Which is my argument, that we should do that. Scale Maximalists (also alled "Bitter Lesson Maximalists", but I dislike the term) have been dominating ML research, and DeepSeek shows that scale isn't enough. So will hopefully give the mathy people more weight. But then again, is not the common way monopolies fall is because they become too arrogant and incestuous?

So mostly, I agree, I'm just pointing out that there is a bit more subtly and I think we need to recognize that to make progress. There are a lot of physicists and mathy people who like ML and have been doing research in the area but are often pushed out because of the thinking I listed. Though part of the success of the quant industry is recognizing that the strong math and modeling skills of physicists generalize pretty well and you go after people who recognize that an equation that describes a spring isn't only useful for springs, but is useful for anything that oscillates. That understanding of math at that level is very powerful and boy are there a lot of people that want the opportunity to demonstrate this in ML, they just never get similar GPU access.

[0] https://www.ft.com/content/d5f91c27-3be8-454a-bea5-bb8ff2a85...

[1] https://archive.is/20241125132313/https://www.thewrap.com/un...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level

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