Great article. I still feel like very few people are viewing the Deepseek effects in the right light. If we are 10x more efficient it's not that we use 1/10th the resources we did before, we expand to have 10x the usage we did before. All technology products have moved this direction. Where there is capacity, we will use it. This argument would not work if we were close to AGI or something and didn't need more, but I…
Would this not mean we need much much more training data to fully utilize the now "free" capacities?
The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
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Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#212I don't think it's necessarily a coincidence that DeepSeek dropped within a short time frame of the announcement of the AI investment initiative by the Trump administration.
The idea is to get the money from investors who want to earn a return. Lower capex is attractive to investors, and DS drops capex dramatically. It makes Chinese AI talent look like the smart, safe bet. Nothing like DS could happen in China unless the powers-that-be knew about it and got some level of control. I'm also willing to bet that this isn't the best they've got.
They're saying "we can deliver the same capabilities for far less, and we're not going to threaten you with a tariff for not complying".
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#213Part of the reason Musk, Zuckerberg, Ellison, Nadella and other CEOs are bragging about the number of GPUs they have (or plan to have) is to attract talent. Perplexity CEO says he tried to hire an AI researcher from Meta, and was told to ‘come back to me when you have 10,000 H100 GPUs’ See https://www.businessinsider.nl/ceo-says-he-tried-to-hire-an-...
This reminds of the joke in physics, in which theoretical particle physicists told experimental physicists, over and over again, "trust me bro, standard model will be proved at 10x eV, we just need a bigger collider bro" after another world's biggest collider is built. Wondering if we are in a similar position with "trust me bro AGI will be achieved with 10x more GPUs".
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#214DeepSeek just further reinforces the idea that there is a first-move disadvantage in developing AI models. When someone can replicate your model for 5% of the cost in 2 years, I can only see 2 rational decisions: 1) Start focusing on cost efficiency today to reduce the advantage of the second mover (i.e. trade growth for profitability) 2) Figure out how to build a real competitive moat through one or more of the foll…
> DeepSeek just further reinforces the idea that there is a first-move disadvantage in developing AI models. you are assuming that what DeepSeek achieved can be reasonably easily replicated by other companies. then the question is when all big techs and tons of startups in China and the US are involved, how come none of those companies succeeded? deepseek is unique.
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#215DeepSeek just further reinforces the idea that there is a first-move disadvantage in developing AI models. When someone can replicate your model for 5% of the cost in 2 years, I can only see 2 rational decisions: 1) Start focusing on cost efficiency today to reduce the advantage of the second mover (i.e. trade growth for profitability) 2) Figure out how to build a real competitive moat through one or more of the foll…
> DeepSeek just further reinforces the idea that there is a first-move disadvantage in developing AI models. you are assuming that what DeepSeek achieved can be reasonably easily replicated by other companies. then the question is when all big techs and tons of startups in China and the US are involved, how come none of those companies succeeded? deepseek is unique.
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#216If we are to get to AGI why do we need to train on all data? That's silly, and all we get is compression and probabliatic retrieval. Intelligence by definition is not compression, but ability to think and act according to new data, based on experience. Trully AGI models will work on the this principle, not on best compression of as much data as possible. We need a new approach.
The tldr; if given inputs and a system that can accurately predict the next sequence you can either compress that data using that prediction (arithmetic coding) or you can take actions based on that prediction to achieve an end goal mapping predictions of new inputs to possible outcomes and then taking the path to a goal (AGI). They boil down to one and the same. So it's weird to have someone state they are not the same when it's widely accepted they absolutely are.
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
> DeepSeek just further reinforces the idea that there is a first-move disadvantage in developing AI models. you are assuming that what DeepSeek achieved can be reasonably easily replicated by other companies. then the question is when all big techs and tons of startups in China and the US are involved, how come none of those companies succeeded? deepseek is unique.
Deepseek is unique, but the US has consistently underestimated Chinese R&D, which is not a winning strategy in iterated games.
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#218I'm wondering if there's a (probably illegal) strategy in the making here: - Wait till NVDA rebounds in price. - Create an OpenAI "competitor" that is powered by Llama or a similar open weights model. - Obscure the fact that the company runs on this open tech and make it seem like you've developed your own models, but don't outright lie. - Release an app and whitepaper (whitepaper looks and sounds technical, but is i…
- Fail at the above. I don’t think this is what happened with DeepSeek. It seems that they’ve genuinely optimized their model for efficiency and used GPUs properly (tiled FP8 trick and FP8 training). And came out on top. The impact on the NVIDIA stock is ridiculous. DeepSeek took the advantage of flexible GPU architecture (unlike inflexible hardware acceleration).
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#219The premise is simple: Business is warfare. Anything you can do to damage or slow down the market leader gives you more time to get caught up. FUD is a powerful force.
My bias comes from having been the subject of such attacks in my prior tech startup. Our technology was destroying the offerings of the market leading multi-billion-dollar global company that pretty much owned the sector. The natural processes of such a beast caused them not to be able to design their way out of a paper bag. We clearly had an advantage. The problem was that we did not have the deep pockets necessary to flood the market with it and take them out.
What did they do?
The started a FUD campaign.
They went to every single large customer and our resellers (this was a hardware/software product) a month or two before the two main industry tradeshows, and lied to them. They promised that they would show market-leading technology "in just a couple of months" and would add comments like "you might want to put your orders on hold until you see this". We had multi-million dollar orders held for months in anticipation of these product unveilings.
And, sure enough, they would announce the new products with a great marketing push at the next tradeshow. All demos were engineered and manipulated to deceive, all of them. Yet, the incredible power of throwing millions of dollars at this effort delivered what they needed, FUD.
The problem with new products is that it takes months for them to be properly validated. So, if the company that had frozen a $5MM order for our products decides to verify the claims of our competitor, it typically took around four months. In four months, they would discover that the new shiny object was shit and less stellar than what they were told. I other words, we won. Right?
No!
The mega-corp would then reassure them that they iterated vast improvements into the design and those would be presented --I kid you not-- at the next tradeshow. Spending millions of dollars they, at this point, denied us of millions of dollars of revenue for approximately one year. FUD, again.
The next tradeshow came and went and the same cycle repeats...it would take months for customers to realize the emperor had no clothes. It was brutal to be on the receiving end of this without the financial horsepower to be able to break through the FUD. It was a marketing arms race and we were unprepared to win it. In this context, the idea that a better mouse trap always wins is just laughable.
This did not end well. They were not going to survive another FUD cycle. Reality eventually comes into play. Except that, in this case, 2008 happened. The economic implosion caught us in serious financial peril due to the damage done by the FUD campaign. Ultimately, it was not survivable and I had to shut down the company.
It took this mega-corp another five years to finally deliver a product that approximated what we had and another five years after that to match and exceed it. I don't even want to imagine how many hundreds of millions they spent on this.
So, long way of saying: China wants to win. No company in China is independent from government forces. This is, without a doubt, a war for supremacy in the AI world. It is my opinion that, while the technology, as described, seems to make sense, it is highly likely that this is yet another form of a FUD campaign to gain time. If they can deny Nvidia (and others) the orders needed to maintain the current pace, they gain time to execute on a strategy that could give them the advantage.
Time will tell.
Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
> NVIDIAs moat Offtopic, but your comment finally pushed me over the edge to semantic satiation [1] regarding the word "moat". It is incredible how this word turned up a short while ago and now it seems to be a key ingredient of every second comment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation
It is incredible how this word turned up a short while ago… I’m sure if I looked, I could find quotes from Warren Buffet (the recognized originator of the term) going back a few decades. But your point stands.
Unfortunately letters before 1977 weren't available online so I wasn't able to search.
It also helps that I've been to several cities with an actual moat so this word is familiar to me.