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How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

schneier.com

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Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#81
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point me to an American with more than $265.911 billion?

I was going off of this: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&#... Where did you get $265.911B?

I confused your parent with another comment just above it comparing Norway and USA, and the GDP figure was for Norway. Sorry about that, too late to edit my original comment now.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#82
post #16

Quite possibly the worst comparison I've ever seen. You're taking a country that not only has an incredibly low crime rate (they had 5 homicides in the entire country in 2009) and only has a population around 5 million. By comparison, Chicago has close to 3 million people just in the city. To try and compare our reaction to terrorism and how the Norwegians reacted to their recent mass killing is completely absurd.

Agreed. (and of course you were downvoted here). People love to hold Scandanavia up as an example as how the rest of the world "could be." However, I think that is such a naive point of view, and one that needs changing. Their populations are too small and lack diversity to make a realistic comparison to the USA or even their larger European neighbors. I usually like Mr. Schriener's work, but this post is a little of…

The "lack of diversity" in Scandinavia comes up now and then even on HN, but:

    In 2010, there were 1.33 million foreign-born residents in Sweden, corresponding
    to 14.3% of the total population. Of these, 859 000 (9.2%) were born outside
   the EU and 477 000 (5.1%) were born in another EU Member State.
This does not include second or third generation immigrants, nor minorities with a longer presence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden

    The number of immigrants in Norway is approximately 550,000.
    The total "immigrant population", which includes Norwegian-born children
    to immigrant parents, is 655,170, corresponding to 13.1 percent of the
    total population (2011).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway#Demograph...

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#83
Maybe I fail to understand this, but we are comparing a country(USA) who (for whatever reason) is specifically targeted by terrorists on a whole different level than Norway.

We are comparing an apple to a boiled egg : putting them in a microwave & trying to commend apple for not exploding !

Forget legislative or leadership moronism at times, but blasting US for reacting in a way for something no other country has ever faced seems too harsh.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#84
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

firearms killings _are_ a pattern, if I recall correctly they are something between 5 and 10 times more frequent in US than other first wold countries. I personally believe that US citizens are unable to understand how dumb their attitude to weapons is, but + mass shootings wouldn't be much impacted by changes in the policy + mass shooting don't seem to have a strong correlation with firearm policy

I agree with you on the mass shootings aspect. However... >firearms killings _are_ a pattern, if I recall correctly they are something between 5 and 10 times more frequent in US than other first wold countries. I personally believe that US citizens are unable to understand how dumb their attitude to weapons is, You can't compare crime rates without controlling for other differences. Most other first world countries a…

Offhand, do you know of any material that delves deeper into that taboo topic? Sociologically I find it really interesting but like you said, it's not a popular subject.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#85
post #67
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you, there is interesting data about effectiveness of these things coming from Israel: Back in 2000, Israel had a series of suicide bombing attacks, which resulted (among other things) in a law requiring every mall, restaurant, cafe, theatre, office buildings and many other businesses to have a full time security guard who will check every person coming in with a metal detector. There were a lot of…

So they spent a lot of money and didn't change the overall outcome? Doesn't sound effective in any way to me.

If your store didn't get bombed you would think it very effective.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#86

A certain segment of Norwegians reacted to terrorism by being enthusiastically for it. These included the leaders of the Labour Party, including the leaders at the Labour Party's Utoya youth camp. http://zalmi.blogspot.com/2011/07/utoya-not-so-innocent-yout... http://www.debbieschlussel.com/40472/karma-2-norway-utoya-ca... This is a factor that seems to go unmentioned in all discussions of the Utoya massacre, but is…

So - by supporting the fact that Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, I'm supporting terrorists? You can support someones cause but not necessarily means. There is a huge difference, and by even suggesting that they support terrorism you are stepping way out of line.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#87

Maybe I fail to understand this, but we are comparing a country(USA) who (for whatever reason) is specifically targeted by terrorists on a whole different level than Norway. We are comparing an apple to a boiled egg : putting them in a microwave & trying to commend apple for not exploding ! Forget legislative or leadership moronism at times, but blasting US for reacting in a way for something no other country has eve…

"something no other country has ever faced"? For God's sake, catch up on world news or at least spare yourself embarrassment by not making such witless pronouncements.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#88
post #10

a. It was domestic terrorism. Compare it to American reaction to domestic terrorism before 9/11 and we may start to have some actual merit in the comparison. There was no "War on terror" on the same scale after the Oklahoma City bombing (1995). b. There's a very different social reaction to domestic terrorism ("there's something rotten in us, we can fix this from the inside") and terrorism from the outside ("we're be…

c. One year strikes me as too soon to assess anything and to pat on anyone's back.

One year after 9/11 (ok, 14 months but the work was being publicly done within a year) - we had Homeland security, PATRIOT Act, a war, and noise about another war. Sales of duct tape went through the roof (along with plastic tarps, some sort of voodoo chem weapon protection scheme), new warrantless wire taps everywhere, the NSA box to read all internet traffic, and so on.

So yes, a year is plenty of time to compare responses in the first year.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#89
post #14
post #3

While I understand the point being made, Breivig apparently acted alone, and his actions were most similar to Timothy McVeigh. The proper comparison would be to compare changes in policy following Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing. After the bombing of Khobar Towers, the bombing of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombing of the USS Cole, and finally the acts of 9…

>but rather implementing some rational gun laws. Changing laws that could negatively impact millions of people because of the statistically extremely small amount of people killed in mass shootings is just the kind of overreaction the article is talking about. If you want to debate gun laws you have to weigh the rights of gun owners with the rights of people killed every year. Our policies shouldn't be based on stati…

Even the Obama administration has said it is against calling for more gun regulation because of this.

Just saying: Despite the attack ad fueled mass hysteria about this, Obama hasn't done anything regarding US gun policy, in any direction.

Re: How the Norwegians Reacted to Terrorism

#90
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on the mass shootings aspect. However... >firearms killings _are_ a pattern, if I recall correctly they are something between 5 and 10 times more frequent in US than other first wold countries. I personally believe that US citizens are unable to understand how dumb their attitude to weapons is, You can't compare crime rates without controlling for other differences. Most other first world countries a…

Offhand, do you know of any material that delves deeper into that taboo topic? Sociologically I find it really interesting but like you said, it's not a popular subject.

You can check the DOJ for statistics, but I've found it incredibly hard to find any unbiased analysis.

I was interested in the topic after I saw a DOJ chart that listed crime by race. I had to research myself to find anything really useful, and by research I just mean taking data from DOJ statistics.

The thing is, it's like we live in 2 separate countries, if you're white or asian, America is almost as safe as other first world countries. If you're Black or Hispanic it's much, much more dangerous.

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