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DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

arxiv.org

691–700 of 1001 posts

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#691
Has anyone done a benchmark on these reasoning models compared to simply prompting "non-reasoning" LLMs with massive chain of thought?

For example, a go to test I've used (but will have to stop using soon) is: "Write some JS code to find the smallest four digit prime number whose digits are in strictly descending order"

That prompt, on its own, usually leads to an incorrect response with non-reasoning models. They almost always forget the "smallest" part, and give the largest four digit prime with descending digits instead. If I prompt o1, it takes longer, but gives the correct answer. If I prompt DeepSeek R1 with that, it takes a long time (like three minutes) of really unhinged looking reasoning, but then produces a correct answer.

Which is cool, but... If I just add "Take an extensive amount of time to think about how to approach this problem before hand, analyzing the problem from all angles. You should write at least three paragraphs of analysis before you write code", then Sonnet consistently produces correct code (although 4o doesn't).

This really makes me wonder to what extent the "reasoning" strategies even matter, and to what extent these models are just "dot-dot-dotting"[1] their way into throwing more computation at the problem.

Note that an important point in the "dot by dot" paper was that models that weren't retrained to understand filler tokens didn't benefit from them. But I think that's pretty unsurprising, since we already know that models behave erratically when fed extremely out-of-distribution outputs (cf. glitch tokens). So a plausible explanation here is that what these models are learning to do is not output valid reasoning steps, but to output good in-distribution token sequences which give them more time to find the right answer. The fact that DeepSeek's "thinking" looks like what I'd call "vaguely relevant garbage" makes me especially suspicious that this is what's happening.

[1] Let's Think Dot by Dot: Hidden Computation in Transformer Language Models: https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.15758

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#692
Everyone is trying to say its better than the biggest closed models. It feels like it has parity, but its not the clear winner.

But, its free and open and the quant models are insane. My anecdotal test is running models on a 2012 mac book pro using CPU inference and a tiny amount of RAM.

The 1.5B model is still snappy, and answered the strawberry question on the first try with some minor prompt engineering (telling it to count out each letter).

This would have been unthinkable last year. Truly a watershed moment.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#693

Everyone is trying to say its better than the biggest closed models. It feels like it has parity, but its not the clear winner. But, its free and open and the quant models are insane. My anecdotal test is running models on a 2012 mac book pro using CPU inference and a tiny amount of RAM. The 1.5B model is still snappy, and answered the strawberry question on the first try with some minor prompt engineering (telling i…

you don't mind me asking how are you running locally?

I'd love to be able to tinker with running my own local models especially if it's as good as what you're seeing.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#694
post #40

Question about the rule-based rewards (correctness and format) mentioned in the paper: Does the raw base model just expected “stumble upon“ a correct answer /correct format to get a reward and start the learning process? Are there any more details about the reward modelling?

Yes and no. In their paper they said they trained two models. One is purely RL based (R1Zero). So this one is trained like you described, i.e. it has to stumble upon the correct answer. They found it to be good but has problems like repetition and language mixing.

The main R1 model was first finetuned with synthetic CoT data before going through RL IIUC.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#695
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be due to their chat interface than in the model or their system prompt, as kagi's r1 answers it with no problems. Or maybe it is because of adding the web results. https://kagi.com/assistant/98679e9e-f164-4552-84c4-ed984f570... edit: it is due to adding the web results or sth about searching the internet vs answering on its own, as without internet access it refuses to answer https://kagi.com/assistant/3ef6d8…

I've seen claims that the official API is less censored than the public weights.

I can't find back the exact post, but on r/LocalLlaMA, some people ended up debugging that. Instead of prompting , prompt \n, and then they got the same kind of response as the API.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't been to China since 2019, but it is pretty obvious that median quality of life is higher in the US. In China, as soon as you get out of Beijing-Shanghai-Guangdong cities you start seeing deep poverty, people in tiny apartments that are falling apart, eating meals in restaurants that are falling apart, and the truly poor are emaciated. Rural quality of life is much higher in the US.

> Rural quality of life is much higher in the US. There’s a lot of rural poverty in the US and it’s hard to compare it to China in relative terms. And the thing is that rural poverty in the US has been steadily getting worse while in China getting better but starting off from a worse off position.

I agree with you that Chinese rural poverty is probably improving faster, but I'm not sure that rural poverty has been "steadily getting worse" in the US as you claim. This [1] page with data from the census bureau make it look like rural poverty goes in waves, with the recent local maximum in 2013 about half of the initial 1959 measurement.

But this is all confounded by definitions. China defines poverty to be an income of $2.30 per day, which corresponds to purchasing power parity of less than $9 per day in the US [2].

I wasn't exaggerating about emaciation: bones were visible.

[1] https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/rural-economy-population/rur...

[2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/PA.NUS.PPP?locations=CN

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#698
post #268

I've been using https://chat.deepseek.com/ over My ChatGPT Pro subscription because being able to read the thinking in the way they present it is just much much easier to "debug" - also I can see when it's bending it's reply to something, often softening it or pandering to me - I can just say "I saw in your thinking you should give this type of reply, don't do that". If it stays free and gets better that's going to b…

The one thing I've noticed about its thought process is that if you use the word "you" in a prompt, it thinks "you" refers to the prompter and not to the AI.

Could you give an example of a prompt where this happened?

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#699
post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. I like DeepSeek, because I can turn on Search button. Turning on Deepthink R1 makes the results as bad as Perplexity. The results make me feel like they used parallel construction, and that the straightforward replies would have actually had some value. Claude Sonnet 3."6" may be limited in rare situations, but its personality really makes the responses outperform everything else when you're trying to…

IMO the deep think button works wonders.

Whenever I use it, it just seems to spin itself in circles for ages, spit out a half-assed summary and give up.

Is it like the OpenAI models in that in needs to be prompted in extremely-specific ways to get it to not be garbage?

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#700

Everyone is trying to say its better than the biggest closed models. It feels like it has parity, but its not the clear winner. But, its free and open and the quant models are insane. My anecdotal test is running models on a 2012 mac book pro using CPU inference and a tiny amount of RAM. The 1.5B model is still snappy, and answered the strawberry question on the first try with some minor prompt engineering (telling i…

you don't mind me asking how are you running locally? I'd love to be able to tinker with running my own local models especially if it's as good as what you're seeing.

https://ollama.com/
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